Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 12:45 pm

coalkirk wrote:More bullshift liberal revisionist history. Victory was far from inevitable. I'd bet you can rattle off the exact number of US servicemen killled in Iraq to the minute ( I picture you with a little chalk board tally next to your computer) but I'd also bet you have no idea of the number of US servicemen killed in just the pacific battles. We lost 12,500 on Okinawa alone, 6,000 at Guadalcanal, 5,000 in the Bataan death march. Causuality estimates were widely debated for the planned invasion of the Japan islands but the number agreed on by most accounts was 500,000 to 750,000 US killed alone.


Two early critics of the bombings were Albert Einstein and Leo Szilard, who had together spurred the first bomb research in 1939 with a jointly written letter to President Roosevelt. Szilard, who had gone on to play a major role in the Manhattan Project, argued:

"Let me say only this much to the moral issue involved: Suppose Germany had developed two bombs before we had any bombs. And suppose Germany had dropped one bomb, say, on Rochester and the other on Buffalo, and then having run out of bombs she would have lost the war. Can anyone doubt that we would then have defined the dropping of atomic bombs on cities as a war crime, and that we would have sentenced the Germans who were guilty of this crime to death at Nuremberg and hanged them?"

A number of scientists who worked on the bomb were against its use. Led by Dr. James Franck, seven scientists submitted a report to the Interim Committee (which advised the President) in May 1945, saying:

"If the United States were to be the first to release this new means of indiscriminate destruction upon mankind, she would sacrifice public support throughout the world, precipitate the race for armaments, and prejudice the possibility of reaching an international agreement on the future control of such weapons."

The above is from a Wiki article on this precise debate, complete with actual facts. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debate_over_the_atomic_bombings_of_Hiroshima_and_Nagasaki

"Means of indiscriminate destruction?" No double standard? As we all know, history is written by the victors. But that doesn't mean we're as virtuous as we like to think.

And the last prediction? Pretty accurate for a crystal ball now 63 years old, huh?
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:00 pm

Actually it was conjecture based on their own feelings about Mass destruction and probably more about the guilt they shared for being at least responsible for inventing it. Nothing new there. What it says about you is even more telling. I think you'd rather we ...

1. Never went to war to help our Allies
2. Asked the Japanese not to attack us again....Please.
3. Let England worry about it, screw the French, they actually like the occupation anyways.
4.Your most likely favorite....
Go to war, but play politically correct, no carpet bombing, no Nukes and sacrifice 750,000 or more US servicemen.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: spc On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:12 pm

stockingfull wrote:"Means of indiscriminate destruction?" No double standard? As we all know, history is written by the victors. But that doesn't mean we're as virtuous as we like to think.
Does the US Military Academy at West Point know you live close by?
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:18 pm

spc wrote:
stockingfull wrote:"Means of indiscriminate destruction?" No double standard? As we all know, history is written by the victors. But that doesn't mean we're as virtuous as we like to think.
Does the US Military Academy at West Point know you live close by?


Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: they're more open to a searching discussion of the ethics of warfare than you are.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:21 pm

Ed.A wrote:Actually it was conjecture based on their own feelings about Mass destruction and probably more about the guilt they shared for being at least responsible for inventing it. Nothing new there. What it says about you is even more telling. I think you'd rather we ...

1. Never went to war to help our Allies
2. Asked the Japanese not to attack us again....Please.
3. Let England worry about it, screw the French, they actually like the occupation anyways.
4.Your most likely favorite....
Go to war, but play politically correct, no carpet bombing, no Nukes and sacrifice 750,000 or more US servicemen.


No, not exactly. I'd:
1. Fight the fights we have to, not those we don't have to.
2. Help to liberate any nation not an enemy which is occupied by a foreign force that asked us to, i.e., France, Kuwait, not Vietnam, Iraq.
3. Fight exactly as ethically as we expect from our adversaries, which is the essence of the Geneva Convention.
Last edited by stockingfull on Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:23 pm

stockingfull wrote:
spc wrote:
stockingfull wrote:"Means of indiscriminate destruction?" No double standard? As we all know, history is written by the victors. But that doesn't mean we're as virtuous as we like to think.
Does the US Military Academy at West Point know you live close by?


Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: they're more open to a searching discussion of the ethics of warfare than you are.


Ethics? like sending the severed fingers of captured National Guardsmen to prove that they are alive? Tell them and their families about ethics.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:26 pm

Ed.A wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: they're more open to a searching discussion of the ethics of warfare than you are.


Ethics? like sending the severed fingers of captured National Guardsmen to prove that they are alive? Tell them and their families about ethics.


Classic guerilla tactics to provoke a disproportionate response. What's your point? That we should do likewise, like saw their heads off?

You don't even make it into the McCain advisory group! :lol:
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: spc On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 2:32 pm

stockingfull wrote:
spc wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Does the US Military Academy at West Point know you live close by?
Of one thing I'm absolutely certain: they're more open to a searching discussion of the ethics of warfare than you are.
Just want to make sure your not an outside contractor. :nono:
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:39 pm

spc wrote:Just want to make sure your not an outside contractor. :nono:


Actually, they like guys like me, because they're training the cadets to actually think about what they're doing. :P
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 4:42 pm

stockingfull wrote:Classic guerilla tactics to provoke a disproportionate response. What's your point? That we should do likewise, like saw their heads off?

You don't even make it into the McCain advisory group! :lol:


What the hell are you talking about? I was merely pointing our that your outrage over putting panties on prisoners heads, or the Nuclear Option that was used 63 years ago is somehow relevent. I think you'd be hard pressed to find very many US War Crimes that come close to measuring up to what we were subjected to.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 5:28 pm

Ed.A wrote:
stockingfull wrote:Classic guerilla tactics to provoke a disproportionate response. What's your point? That we should do likewise, like saw their heads off?

You don't even make it into the McCain advisory group! :lol:


What the hell are you talking about? I was merely pointing our that your outrage over putting panties on prisoners heads, or the Nuclear Option that was used 63 years ago is somehow relevent. I think you'd be hard pressed to find very many US War Crimes that come close to measuring up to what we were subjected to.


First, I'm not talking about panties on anybody's head, I'm talking, for just one example, about connecting, oh, electrodes to the genitals of prisoners. Second, my point was and is that the fact that our soldiers and/or citizens have been subjected to inhuman treatment has never been a justification for reciprocating. That's why there's a Geneva Convention, and that's why violating it is a War Crime. And prosecution, not reciprocation, is the remedy.

That's the way countries which say they're civilized behave, regardless of whom they're dealing with.

And all of that is why you wouldn't even make the cut to advise John McCain, because he's been tortured, he knows what kind of physical and psychological damage that inhuman treatment can bring about (which we'll be finding out much more about as the campaign progresses :verycool: ) and he opposes torture of all kinds under all circumstances (at least until he started kissing up to the radical right a couple months ago :roll: ).
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 6:57 pm

Hey if you oppose "torture" then thats your Moral issue. I don't subscribe to that, but thats just me and millions more like me.
I never considered the Genital thing and frankly it never crossed my mind, again if thats the first thing you think about then its your moral issue....not mine.
I believe we should use whatever means we need to extract info, simple. If waterboarding is allowed, use it.
Please don't keep bringing up the Fact that I have to hold my nose and vote for Mr. John McCain.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 7:25 pm

Ed.A wrote:Hey if you oppose "torture" then thats your Moral issue. I don't subscribe to that, but thats just me and millions more like me.
I never considered the Genital thing and frankly it never crossed my mind, again if thats the first thing you think about then its your moral issue....not mine.
I believe we should use whatever means we need to extract info, simple. If waterboarding is allowed, use it.
Please don't keep bringing up the Fact that I have to hold my nose and vote for Mr. John McCain.


Sorry to remind you that Abu Ghraib was a little more serious than panties on prisoners' heads. Yeah, I do oppose torture, I support the Geneva Convention and other "quaint" concepts like never treating prisoners inhumanely, no matter what.

Just like John McCain used to. :roll:

But you may not have to hold your nose and vote for Senator Mr.Clean. Remember Tom Eagleton? ;)
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: Ed.A On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:32 pm

stockingfull wrote:[Sorry to remind you that Abu Ghraib was a little more serious than panties on prisoners' heads. Yeah, I do oppose torture, I support the Geneva Convention and other "quaint" concepts like never treating prisoners inhumanely, no matter what.


I actually do support the Geneva ConventionS, it's the fact that none of our enemies have ever adhered to them and yet we are the Bad-a$$es all the time.
It gets old....really old, and people like you constantly throw us under the bus without regard to the fact that we have always been held to the highest standards, and dammit for the HUGE majority of the time we abide by it.
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Re: Barack Hussein Obama "A closer look"

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sat Mar 15, 2008 8:44 pm

Ed.A wrote:
stockingfull wrote:[Sorry to remind you that Abu Ghraib was a little more serious than panties on prisoners' heads. Yeah, I do oppose torture, I support the Geneva Convention and other "quaint" concepts like never treating prisoners inhumanely, no matter what.


I actually do support the Geneva ConventionS, it's the fact that none of our enemies have ever adhered to them and yet we are the Bad-a$$es all the time.
It gets old....really old, and people like you constantly throw us under the bus without regard to the fact that we have always been held to the highest standards, and dammit for the HUGE majority of the time we abide by it.


Throw you under the bus? How melodramatic, and how misleading.

It ain't all do-gooding; there's a strategic reason for restraining ourselves. Because, for every prisoner tortured, many many more become aware of it and join the jihad. We will begin to win the "War on Terror" when we have stopped thinking about using tactics for defeating conventional armies against an amorphous enemy, since those tactics only exacerbate the problem.

Put another way, you need not only balls, but brains to win this war. Most right wingnuts just don't get that. But there's hope, many in the military do, and when they get the right CIC next year, they'll be able to do a much more effective job.
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