The Refractory Thread!

 
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joeq
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Post by joeq » Tue. Sep. 08, 2015 4:02 pm

franco b wrote:The simplest and I think best is a form like that in the posts by DC Crane.
Do you know what that thread is called FB?


 
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Post by joeq » Tue. Sep. 08, 2015 4:05 pm

[quote="Sunny Boy"
If you want to speed that up, with the Rutland #601 Castable, you can mold up to two bricks a day.
Yes, they need a full 24 hours to fully cure, but they only need about 12 hours in the mold to reach a state of firmness that they won't fall apart when removed from the mold.
Paul[/quote]
That's what I needed to know. Thanx Paul.

 
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Post by scuttle » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 8:23 am

Has anyone used or considered using Noxram or a product like it to make fire bricks? Would they hold together? Would they hold up?

The advantages I see for Noxram are that it is premixed and, at least where I am, cheaper than the castable refractory cement.

I haven't used either.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 8:52 am

You'd need a strong mold to force the ramset material into. The material is sticky and very dense. Much like super tough modeling clay. It literally has to be hammered, or "rammed" into place to get it to adhere.

That not only helps it stay in place, also being in such contact with the firepot/firebox walls allows it to transfer some heat to the firepot/firebox walls. Refractory material is less insulating than the rectangular firebricks that come in many modern stoves, or that you can buy in stove shops.

Refractory material only insulates enough to reduce thermal shocks to the cast iron, keep some more heat in the firebed for more complete anthracite combustion, while at the same time allow the firepot/firebox to be part of the stove's surfaces that radiate heat. Just like the original fire clay bricks did in antique stoves.

As far as how ramset would hold up as bricks, I don't know ? The manufactures of refractory material recommend castable type materials for making bricks, and ramset type materials for forming linings in place. The materials are not just slightly different viscosities of the same material, so there may be more about those materials that makes them the better choice for their intended applications ????? I went with what the manufactures were recommending as what was the best choice of refractory material for what I wanted to do.

Paul

 
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Post by scuttle » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 2:15 pm

Sunny Boy, thanks for responding.

I just got off the phone with your contact, Wilson Mull. Unlike you, I don't have any original bricks to use as patterns, so he suggested that I just use the plastic refractory to make new ones, using the fire pot itself as a mold. The process is, roughly:
1) hammer out the material to the desired thickness on a flat surface
2) line fire pot with these sheets of material, hammer into place
3) use putty knife to cut into separate bricks: two rows, with bricks in upper row offset from the ones in the lower row (as in the picture you posted on page 1)

He says the cuts don't have to go all the way through, just enough to serve as score marks so that the bricks will break apart when the material dries.

He says he does this himself and it works fine.

I think I'll use pieces of thin box board to line the fire pot and separate the bricks to make it easier to separate them and remove them when they're dry. Maybe wax paper to line the pot, too.

Incidentally, Wilson also said he thinks the bricks should not be cemented in, and that doing this would cause them to crack, as you suspected.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 4:22 pm

Scuttle,
That should work. BTW, what stove are you relining?

Or you could roll out the ramset material to get the one inch thickness and then cut it into rectangles on a flat surface, using straight edges to guide the cuts. Size them to whatever the circumference is, divided up by however many bricks in each row.

Use wax paper strips behind and between so that the bricks don't stick to the pot, or each other. Then just let the bricks curve to fit the pot curvature as you gently press them into place. Let dry in place and they should be easily removable. Maybe even make an extra brick for each row, and let dry in place. Then that could become a spare and/or the pattern for a mold at a later date ?

Yes, as I told Wilson, there was no evidence that any of the bricks in my #6 had ever been glued in place. We both agreed that with the bricks not being glued in place, they would be able to shift slightly to be able to deal with any expansion/contraction from the wide range of temps they would be exposed to. That would likely reduce chances of them cracking.

Time will tell.

Paul

 
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Post by joeq » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 4:43 pm

So Paul, hasn't there been any members in the past that have tried putting the bricks in loose? It would seem to me, when the stove is cold, and the bricks have gaps between them, maybe the top row would tend to tilt forward and drop out? I mean, if the gaps were only a few thousandths of an inch, maybe, but if they're an 1/8th or more, I'm not so sure. But I guess it's easy enuff to test. Just put the new bricks in, and give them a push/pull test. That would tell all, wouldn't it? If they can pull out, then I guess some backing cement would be in order.


 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 5:37 pm

Joe,

I don't know if anyone has posted that tried casting bricks for an antique.


The bricks in a round firepot can't fall out, if they don't have overly wide gaps at their ends. Their curving wedge shape holds them in place. The last brick in each row has to be slide downward into place.

In use, the coal is also pushing outward on the bricks holding them in place.

And after some use, the fly ash starts to fill in whatever slight gap there is in the joints at each end of the bricks. That holds them in place nice and snug, but still allows some flexing.

If the bricks do crack, the cracked surfaces are very uneven. So the pieces of the brick stay locked together like a jigsaw puzzle. All 14 of the original bricks in my #6 came out in at least five, or more pieces. Yet, despite all those broken pieces not even one tiny chunk of brick shook loose on the 8 hour ride home. As Wilson had done while I was there, I could have fired up the stove without worry with those original bricks as soon as I got it home and reassembled .

Paul

 
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Post by scuttle » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 7:08 pm

A Stewart Oak 160. And thank you for responding to that thread, too, Sunny Boy.

I decided not to use Noxram, but another plastic refractory called Super Hybond Plus. Your comment about the difference between modern firebricks and original fire clay bricks prompted me to do a little research, and the composition of the Super Hybond seemed to be more similar to a description I found of fire clay used to make bricks back then (1918, I think).

 
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Post by joeq » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 8:18 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Joe,
The bricks in a round firepot can't fall out, if they don't have overly wide gaps at their ends. Their curving wedge shape holds them in place.
Paul
I guess my question is then, "What is an overly wide gap"? From what little I've seen, the gaps appear to be about 1/8th to 3/16ths. Or even that might be a little bigger than I'm thinking. smaller? My concern is, when molding my bricks, how much can I deviate from the original size, B4 it becomes a problem? Not that I want to. Just things that I make never seem to mirror the originals, "exactly".

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 8:45 pm

The larger the pot diameter, or the shorter the bricks are, then the smaller the brick end gap must be because of the end angles (wedge shaped).

And if each brick is short and they are installed touching, the final gap will be the total of however many bricks there are times the gap of each.

I wouldn't go more than 1/8 for a small pot with say four or five bricks. Go smaller - like 1/16 inch - for a large diameter pot, or more bricks per row.

If your 160 has a 16 inch pot that's about what my #6 is. I have about 1/32 inch gap between each brick - 7 bricks per row. So that's a possible total of one 7/32 gap if I push all the bricks together with ends touching. I can't remove a brick without lifting it up.

And the bricks would not be installed touching - there should be some gap between each. So the total of the gap would not be all in one place. Plus, the bricks don't slide sideways easily. Once the stove is started up ash will start to fill in any gaps.

If your still worried about the bricks may turn out to have a bit too much gap, then just put a dab, or two, of refractory sealer between them to keep them apart. Or, you can make the bricks a bit too long. Then install the bricks as they are, except grind the last brick or two to fit so that all the bricks can have a slight gap. That's what I did. I ground off the ends to make a slight gap because my bottom row bricks came out a bit too long.

Don't worry about bricks being a bit too loose. If you have to transport the stove you should take the bricks out anyway. When it comes time to light a fire, coal will hold them in place and ash will quickly fill in any gaps. ;)

Paul

 
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Post by joeq » Thu. Sep. 24, 2015 10:51 pm

You "are" a stove glossary Paul. :)

 
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Post by wilsons woodstoves » Fri. Sep. 25, 2015 7:38 am

Yes, that sounds right to me

 
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Post by black diamonds » Sun. Sep. 27, 2015 4:42 am

scalabro wrote:Ok, the search box seemed to come up with lots of stuff to fish through so I thought since many members are either going it on their own with a resto or just looking for info, maybe this would be a good source for all refractory info.....

I know some use " noxram" and some use "castable refractory."

I thought this might be interesting to use because at heart, being an old school gear head, I have to "improve" on what's traditionally been done. :rofl: :doh: toothy

Here is what I'm thinking of using on my Stewart BB.....

Kast o lite 26 I

http://www.hightemptools.com/castablerefractory.html
on the advice of the stove hospital, who restores more stoves than anyone, I bought a 50 lb. block of SUPER HI-BOND PLUS, a heavy duty stove refractory, that comes in a box, and you cut it like a block of meatloaf. it is the consistency of heavy play dough clay with grit in it. cut a square flat piece, flatten it out on a piece of plywood with a 4x4 like pizza dough, then it forms right into the curved shape of any firebox or firepot. it air dries over a period of a week or so. this is the stuff they use in high temp heat treat furnaces, on the walls, in heavy industry. amazing stuff. with the one 75 lb. box I relined 3 round firepots- an oak stove, a potbelly, and the baseheater. and there's still a little left in the box. it only cost $75 shipped for the entire box, and you don't need molds or pouring, etc. I was able to reline a firepot in about 15 minutes, if that. the drying time is long, but the price and results well worth it. bulletproof stuff.

having done that, there is a better way yet, but more expensive. the new alloys for firepots are far more heat resistant than the oem cast iron. I was told later to send my firepot out, have a replacement made, and use that in the stove, with no liner at all needed for coal. they are just that good now. but the price is around $250 plus shipping both ways to get your original and new firepots back. you ship them one, they ship you 2 back, and they are not light, so shipping would be another 100 or so.

 
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Post by Sunny Boy » Mon. Nov. 09, 2015 8:55 am

Since we're getting so many threads about roughly the same topic, I took the liberty of starting a thread with the title, "Fire Bricks and Linings" with the intension of having one thread that will turn up links to all the other threads not using those same words. There's also info on firepot linings.

Fire Bricks and Linings - Making Your Own.

This way one thread with the most common search title should lead to all the wealth of info on making molds, bricks, and linings.

If anyone knows of other threads that I haven't put a link to, please add it to the post.

Thank you,
Paul


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