Radiant Vs Register Heating -What to Do?

Post by **Rob R.** » Sun. Sep. 13, 2015 3:26 pm

Cast iron baseboard or steel panel radiators are some more options.

Room temperature variation with fin tube baseboard can be greatly reduced with an outdoor reset control. Longer circulation times = less temp. Variability.

Freddy · Post by **Freddy** » Sun. Sep. 13, 2015 5:15 pm

Before I made a decision like this I'd get two things: A heat loss study and a second opinion. Four grand extra seems like too much to me.

snuffy · Post by **snuffy** » Sun. Sep. 13, 2015 5:28 pm

Hi Guys,

Thank you for the ideas and please, more the better. I think the outfit already did the heat study for both types of systems and I will double check that. I like the idea of warm floors for the bath/shower areas as we have ceramic in both areas however the kitchen area would need a under cabinet blower and my mom has an electric hydronic unit for the kitchen and there is no place else for baseboard there so radiant there might be a better option for that area. I've not heard about cast iron baseboard so I'll look into it as a option. So far it seems I'm leaning to the baseboard for the majority of the house but I'll need to know what a split system might cost.

I certainly appreciate your thoughts and I will read the additional recommendations. If anyone else is looking for this information in the future atleast we have a thread that helps folks with their decision making. I know this one has been especially helpful. Thanks.
Snuffy

waldo lemieux · Post by **waldo lemieux** » Sun. Sep. 13, 2015 8:26 pm

Freddy wrote:Before I made a decision like this I'd get two things: A heat loss study and a second opinion. Four grand extra seems like too much to me.

The pex pipe will cost about $.50 / sq ft of space heated. $100 for the two manifolds (per zone) insulation for the floor cavities(r-19) 1 Mixing valve per zone $75 and you need a pump per zone(or valve) either way so thats a wash. So if you can thread your own pipe and insulate under it you could do it way cheaper, ifn ya got to hire it out well....

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Sun. Sep. 13, 2015 11:39 pm

I would also ask about a gravity hot water system as long as your looking around
and don't take no for an answer.

If the answer is still no find a another plumber that will install a one pipe steam system
or a hot water gravity system for you.

One thing to keep in mind is the existing floor is already in place and if the floor
joists are going to be drilled into to run the pex thats already a bad idea and will weaken
the floor joists where a gravity hot water or steam one pipe system will be easier to install.

A very very small radiator will release a lot of steam heat or hydronic heat if it is a gravity system
WITH NO PUMPS.

First buy the paper backs I mentioned(no I do not get a dime for mentioning them) then read
them then have a heat loss study done by someone that does home inspections.

Post by **Rob R.** » Mon. Sep. 14, 2015 5:57 am

Good idea reading some books and gaining an understanding of hydronics...and good luck finding anyone that understands gravity systems or steam. Most contractors will run the other way and prospective buyers won't be impressed either. The cost of large diameter piping makes gravity systems expensive to install. Since a circulator costs about $80 and is cheap to run, what is the big deal?

McGiever · Post by **McGiever** » Mon. Sep. 14, 2015 8:07 am

To *Snuffy*, You say Mom's 1972 4 br ranch needs new heating system, but never mentioned what she has now. Spill the beans, what's Mom heating with now?

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Mon. Sep. 14, 2015 11:36 am

Rob R. wrote: Good idea reading some books and gaining an
understanding of hydronics...and good luck finding
anyone that understands gravity systems or steam.
Most contractors will run the other way and prospective
buyers won't be impressed either.
The cost of large diameter piping makes gravity systems
expensive to install.

Since a circulator costs about $80 and is cheap to run, what is the big deal?

Hello Rob, hello Mcgiever,

about circulators they are not cheap to run even on night rate.

Sorry Mcgiever I forgot to ask what the current heating being used is;
it does not sound like she is burning the wonderfull black rocks for heat.

The beauty of a hot water gravity system is the thermal mass and
natural circulation.with simple convection with much more water
and thermal mass to heat with using central heating.

If a licensed plumber runs away from a new steam or gravity hot water job
that in itself simply tells me that he or she does not want the work
(mostly because of a smaller profit margin in my opinion).

All these folks have to pass standard exams with certification to do
national plumbing code work.

There are a couple of plumbers around here that wont even bid on
boiler jobs let alone be called for repair work for them in an emergency nor
return phone calls or look at jobs. If they really want your business
they will return with an estimate.

I(f they are not interested in emergency heating or water repair work in
any case that tells ME they will never get my business ever.

Thats why I got tired of some well drillers doing my water plumbing in a hurry 33 years ago.
when my well collapsed all the way to the well casing 92 feet below the ground.

My well was 292 feet deep before the collapse and to quote him; I hit bedrock at 92 feet- NOOOOOT A CHANCE IN HELL DID THAT HAPPEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And not having running water for 7 months and listening to his excuses and losing 2 pumps in the hole is my proof!!

I would have to have the well drilled out in a mud job and have 195 feet of 5 inch casing and a well screen dropped in to repair it but thats going north of 16K(maybe if I get rich I will fix it).

The well was an artesion and always had 280 feet of water in it before it collapsed.

I can recommend a couple of very good well drillers if anyone needs one in Central New York.

Not wanting to name drop but the www. Heating help.com board has a page
for finding plumbers too.

To me, steam would be my first and foremost choice and gravity hot water would be my
second choice if I had a basement.

I am done ranting now; I think.

Sunny Boy · Post by **Sunny Boy** » Mon. Sep. 14, 2015 11:57 am

I agree whole heartedly with what Franco is saying, because I've been there.

I installed oil fired radiant floor heat in my shop when I built it over 20 years ago.

Grew up with and my last house was oil hot water with cast iron radiators.

Except for first four years I was married living in an apartment with aluminum fin baseboard,.... which because it is so poor at storing heat, I paid a lot to always be cold.

My present house is oil/electric forced hot air furnace.

Of all of those types, the radiant floor is far, far better.

With radiant floor, the heat starts at your feet, so your warm from your toes on up. The room temps are much more even throughout the room. No more being warm near the radiators and cooler farthest away. No more sitting watching TV and getting drafts down the back of your neck induced by natural convection because of room hot-spots, and/or, from furnace fans kicking on and off.

And, with the radiant floor, I find I'm much more comfortable while the thermostat is set 8 degrees lower. The fuel oil cost difference is substantial.

Plus, now that I am one, ...

... that warm all over ability of radiant floors is especially important to the elderly - who are more prone to hypothermia - than it would be someone who is still young and doesn't realize the differences !

Live there a few years and the fuel cost savings will pay back much of that $4000.00

Paul

snuffy · Post by **snuffy** » Mon. Sep. 14, 2015 7:49 pm

McGiever,

Currently the 1st floor is all electric baseboard and the basement is a keystoker 90K rice burner and a electric water heater. I'm planning on oil fired primary and replacing the keystoker 90 with a Koker as the secondary (unless I use my spare Mark III). If something happens to me then al least the oil heat will kick on and my Mom will be OK till I can restart the new unit.

I wanted to put in the EFM 520DF but that just blew the budget so to keep my self grounded in anthracite (I just love the heat) I decided to use EFM VT 1000 and the Koker. They'll be located in two different parts of the basement because of chimney locations. Using the split system gives me the best of both worlds and best of all since I may not be able to be there all the time at least I won't have to worry about the heat. A 84 year old Mom gives me enough to worry about.
Snuffy

mozz · Post by **mozz** » Thu. Sep. 17, 2015 9:38 pm

Beware how custom you do the kitchen, as what you like, chances are people house searching aren't going to like it. Nothing fancy is what I am saying.

snuffy · Post by **snuffy** » Fri. Sep. 18, 2015 7:46 pm

At this point I'm leaning to the copper baseboard for all of the home and put under the floor radiant in the kitchen and bathroom floors. My Mom always disliked the electric kicktoe and I really don't want to put a hydronic kicktoe as the fans usually distract everyone with the noise as they get units get older.
Snuffy

P.S. I'm doing everything I can to stay with the black rock

sharkman8810 · Post by **sharkman8810** » Fri. Sep. 18, 2015 9:45 pm

Nothing wrong with baseboard heat. Just don't do a stupid heat pump, all they do is blow cool air around and your cold. They like to put them in new houses so they don't have to install chimneys.

snuffy · Post by **snuffy** » Fri. Sep. 18, 2015 10:02 pm

I had a few heating contractors suggest heat pumps but I stopped them dead in their tracks - they're are so noisy and cold I just can't stand them. I like to know how people like them scattered throughout the house as they are now being advertised. I have a ductless AC system for my own home in the living room 21X35 with tall ceilings but I can hear it at night when it's running in the summer back in the bedrooms. I can imagine how a crappy a house is with a bunch of them running. I thank God for my grand parents and parents for having the good sense to introduce me to coal systems when I was young.

lzaharis · Post by **lzaharis** » Wed. Sep. 30, 2015 11:39 am

Is there any reason you should not, would not, or could not consider smaller how water radiators
on the exterior or interior walls?? I do not remember if you have a basement where you could
easily plumb a hot water radiator system with an expansion tank in the attic as an example, etc.