Radiant Vs Register Heating -What to Do?

I came to a decision with the main heating system and assuming we hit no other contingencies it will be a dual fuel coal/oil. I'm getting the idea that maybe I should consider under the floor radiant since we had to rip out the basement ceilings and insulation so now the entire underfloor is exposed. So since coal would be the primary heat maybe I can save some money by cutting the number of zones from 5 down to 4. I'm also considering placing a old style radiator in the 2 car garage attached to the home and take advantage of keeping that area at least in the 55` range through out the winter. What do you guys think about that as a selling point?

The home sits atop a hill and wind is a strong factor.
Snuffy

sounds good to me

snuffy wrote:I came to a decision with the main heating system and
assuming we hit no other contingencies it will be a dual fuel coal/oil.

I'm getting the idea that maybe I should consider under the floor radiant
since we had to rip out the basement ceilings and insulation so now the
entire underfloor is exposed.

So since coal would be the primary heat maybe I can save some money
by cutting the number of zones from 5 down to 4.

I'm also considering placing a old style radiator in the 2 car garage attached
to the home and take advantage of keeping that area at least in the 55`
range through out the winter. What do you guys think about that as a selling point?

The home sits atop a hill and wind is a strong factor.
Snuffy

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About that;

don't forget that with radiant floor heat your going to have to drill into each and every floor
joist to pass pex under each and every room and also return to the header pipe then back to the
boiler.

And also plan on installing plate reflectors to keep the heat from sinking into the basement.
The reflectors have channel to hold the pex.

Your going to have to put insulation back under the radiant flooring with the foil face up
and use chicken wire to hold the tubing in place to hold the heat if you do not use the reflector plate.

If you do not do it now you will have to put foil insulation board board up in the joists to
hold the heat in.

The fools (supposed experts) that built my fathers factory built home did not do that and my
brother ended up putting in a pellet boiler before he installed the foil backed
insulation board to the floor joists so think about that as an issue UNLESS
and until you install reflectors between the joists(which the factory built
house fools did not) and keep the piping 6 inches away from the side walls
and the end walls which is recommended rule of thumb to prevent excess heat loss.

For the money your better off buying surplus reclaimed clean low height radiators replumbed
for hot water for the home heating load and the garage and the basement if desired to heat it
as there is less work involved by plumbing in the smaller radiators with smaller piping runs.

Unless you insulate the garage and have good overhead doors that can be insulated your going
to waste heat and money.

You might want to invest in pine trees for a wind break shelter belt as well if your going to be there
for a while.

Lots of homes still have just one thermostat for the heat controls and a single
pipe hot water system using low radiators will be less work and throw off more heat.
You can buy radiator insulation for the part of the radiator that is exposed to the
wall by the way and hold more heat in the house.

The other 900 pound canary is when you start installing the heat diffusion plates and the tubing. You have to
look for nail tips from the flooring above and be sure you have removed them before you make all your
pipe runs as a nail hole in your pex or water dripping from the ceiling is not a welcome sight AND
the heat diffusion plates have to be in complete contact with the floor to work right.

A perimeter radiator loop may be a much better way to go as there is one pipe run from the boiler
and back to the boiler. with one circulating pump and you can have a bigger pump with a one inch
pipe run and thermostats on each hot water radiator so keep that in mind as the radiator will be
its own zone.

The quotes I've received call for PEX installed under the floors and the filled in with R-8 two sided Reflective Aluminum faced bubble wrap.

Are you suggesting that hard aluminum plates should used? My anxiety just returned!

The basement will be baseboard radiator on its own zone. The ceiling will be drop ceiling giving about 3-4 inches clear to the floor joist.
Snuffy

I am sorry to add to your anxiety level snuffy, I am really sorry but............................

The aluminum keeps the Pex away from the underside of the floor and also acts to
radiate the heat from the pex tubing that is pushed into the tray to hold it in place.

Order three books from Amazon, Pumping Away, Classic Hydronics and How Come;
all these paperbacks are authored by Dan Holahan who has many years of plumbing
experience as a rep for B+G and Taco and he grew up as a plumbers helper.

The "How Come" paperback shows how pex should be run in under old floors BTW.

Just remember one nail head and your doomed until you find the leak or buy the Pex
with tracer wire in it to locate the leak quickly and I don't have my hand on your wallet.

I honestly think that its going to cost you much less money with repurposed salvaged and
cleaned steam radiators for hot water heat and a one pipe loop to heat the house as it is
so exposed.

Quotes are one thing, experience is another, rehab work is a mess and either way your saddled
with a mess if there is a screw up on an install.

Ten holes through the floor for the five radiators(perhaps a few more) and the garage and a single pipe run around the perimeter of the basement and you can also insulate the delivery piping with good pipe insulation and hide it with your suspended ceiling.

I would find a willing plumber that would install salvaged radiators and a diverter T one pipe system for you to get a quote by going to the heating help forum and looking for more plumbers in your area.

So 5 zones and five radiators with bottom to bottom connections on the delivery pipe using a T to feed the radiator and a diverter T to return flow back to the pipe at each radiator
will provide a gradual temperature even rise and the cold water will sink back to the bottom of each radiator and return back to the boiler. You can use a manual bleeder at each radiator to get the air out and they will heat quicker for you too

Izaharis,

I'll be on the nail hunt as we cleared all of the insulation on the basement ceiling so we should be able to identify those concerns and I thank you for bringing that to my attention.
Snuffy

I would feel a lot better if you got an estimate for a
one pipe diverter T system with reclaimed radiators
or new 20 inch tall radiators as it will be much less
work and you will not need perimiter baseboard heat
in any form.

Before you get any further understand the following:

When tube spacing You will use thsi many
is: linear feet of tubing
per square feet of floor space

4 " on center 3.10

6" on center 2.05

8" on center 1.65

10" on center 1.38

12" on center 1.05

15" on center 0.83

18" on center 0.70

Your going to need 5 zone valves or five pumps
with a pressure header and a return header using pex.

A one pipe diverter T system is just one pipe with one circulator
and one return to the base of the boiler.

You need to research this more before you spend your money.

Using my example, a bad install will come back to haunt you and
saying that, diverter T piping with single pipe with hot water radiators
has been around for along time and they are still used.

You should look at the Columbia Heating Supply home page
to compare this versus radiant floor heat as a diverter T system
is less work and a faster installation.

A hot water radiator will give you 170 BTU per hour per
section times the length of the radiator so keep that in
mind when you examine the issue.

The knowledge necessary to do under floor radiant is a win or lose situation, you either do it all correctly or try to save a nickel in one area and very possibly lose it all. I know that there is a given rule of thumb ratio for the amount of insulation needed under the floor. Wirsbo site maybe has it. Any way, you need the conduction from the tube to the floor, you missed the ball if you hang the tubes. The aluminum plates that the tubes snaps in enable this conduction to the upper floor. A neighbor of mine chose not to use the plates, and hung his tubes. he fiberglassed 6 " under, after all was done he still had to have his out temp at 180, and spent more $ heating his house w/his new system that he just dropped $20k for. Think of it as a coal stove running , go feel the heat w/your hand 1 inch away, ok, now touch the stove w/your hand , ouch, get it. conduction transfers heat much better.
I used rtv and glued/screwed the plates to the floor. rtv conduction rate is better than an open air gap. I then used 2" rigid foam =r10 as the under insulation and polyfoamed all the cracks, that r ratio I was talking about is a ratio of the upper floor r rate to lower insulation r rate. vise versa that, it is like 1.5 or 2.0 to 1. You gotta get the heat to go up and not spill down. I run 80 deg f for water temp out thru a mix valve. I also used the less expensive pre made manifolds w/ the ball valves, just turn the ball valve as a flow adjust and use an IR thermometer to check floor temp after it stabilizes. No need to spend thousands on manifolds and flow adjusters, go ahead if you want.
I also run a tube in concrete for shop heat and run 50 deg f, and that is warm. You have to experience rad floors to understand/believe it. The concept is 1000 square feet of heat transfer as compared to the area of your hot water baseboard fins. Heating from the floor up and not the ceiling down. There is more but, "when installed correctly it works like no other by a wide margin". I know a guy with a 5000 square foot house with rad floor done correctly and he heats it with one 275 gal tank a year, and he is warm.
Just remembered, check out the Vermont folks, radiant heat source something in Montpellier. or just call them. But what ever you do, you must inform yourself and choose your own destiny, many contractors mess it up, some do a good job. But they all say, they are doing it correctly, do not worry about a thing, it is gonna be great.
There are many ways to save on the money, just do not miss the parts that are needed. Oh and the way, it is hard work doing under floor radiant. you will be tired at the end of the day. And (important) if you do not know how to string these tubes, ask. There is a method that is easy as pie, but you must twist your brain sideways to understand it. and some folks do not get it, and go thru stringing 1000 feet thru every 100 holes for a weeks time. Wow. or fill the system with 200 union joints. ...???? I have seen some nightmares out there, that people have spent 20 to 30k for.

Thank you so much alpineboard for explaining in
greater detail to snuffy.

I only want him to succeed, thats why I suggested the
one pipe Diverter Tee System for hot water; fewer holes
greater radiation per foot with smaller radiators
using the one pipe system.

Glad to do it IZ, It is such a waste when it does not get done right. I did give a few hints in that pic. If done like this, with the aluminum plates, it will work. If you know a better way, let us know. thank you.
Just a trailer comment, you build it once, then you feed it $ for the rest of your life. do the #'s
thanks for the kind words iz, I wasn't sure if I was gonna get slammed for what I said.

The simplicity of the bone warming radiant heat from a coal stove looks better & better & better

alpineboard wrote:Glad to do it IZ, It is such a waste when it does not get done right. I did give a few hints in that pic. If done like this, with the aluminum plates, it will work. If you know a better way, let us know. thank you.
Just a trailer comment, you build it once, then you feed it $ for the rest of your life. do the #'s
thanks for the kind words iz, I wasn't sure if I was gonna get slammed for what I said.

Your welcome,

His biggest problem is one of lack of experience and a house with few options and wanting to increase its sales
value in the future. there are lots of homes with good hot water heat that use radiators and one pipe steam systems with very low capacity boilers that are work horses that can easily supply 2 pounds steam pressure to heat a home. The Empire State Building is heated with 2 PSIG steam( I believe its wet steam in the whole city I think).

I imagine that 30 Rockefeller Center is the same way. as a lot of high pressure steam is used in new york to heat buildings with pressure reducing valves to contol the flow of steam to a common header piping system.

I just hate being seeing people being led down the primrose path to the emptying of their wallets.

That is why I am doing what I am doing with my new system as I can buy it now.
By returning it to a steel expansion tank system and a dual fuel coal stoker it eliminate the
rats nest of plumbing I have and I gain back the room I lost and kiss my oil supplier good by until I
need the tank filled to save money as the pellet boilers were 2 to four times as expensive
just in purchase price before taxes. Even with the NYSERDA rebates it was too expensive for us.



If you have the opportunity read Mark Twains "Letter To A Salesman" to gain some real insight.

I told him of my experience with my fathers "canned" home and the so
called experts that built it and installed it, As Dangermouse's cohort Pennfold would say Criminy!!!!!!

He stuck my father for a new lawn after all the crap was done and he did not even do that right simply
using a broadcast spreader to throw seed and not even doing a soil test that would have told the laboratory
that there was 2 inches of wood ash from the slash and burn that was done 2 hundred years ago to clear the flat land up here. I have seen very few good contractors ans more bad ones as the good ones retired or died and the relatives closed the businesses after the founders passing.

If I'm following correctly is this the type of radiatior mentioned?

lzaharis wrote:

Rob R. wrote: Good idea reading some books and gaining an
understanding of hydronics...and good luck finding
anyone that understands gravity systems or steam.
Most contractors will run the other way and prospective
buyers won't be impressed either.
The cost of large diameter piping makes gravity systems
expensive to install.

Since a circulator costs about $80 and is cheap to run, what is the big deal?

Hello Rob, hello Mcgiever,

about circulators they are not cheap to run even on night rate.

I can run a Taco 007 continuously for $5 to $6 per month. I consider that cheap and a good trade off compared to the huge piping, fittings, and radiators required for gravity hot water systems.

snuffy wrote:If I'm following correctly is this the type of radiatior mentioned?

That is a European style steel panel radiator. Very nice, but usually quite pricey. They are normally installed with thermostatic radiator valves and piped off a manifold (usually with pex tubing).

I have a mix of fin tube radiators and freestanding cast iron radiators in my home. Both have pros and cons.

Please buy the books I told you about and read them before you talk to a
plumbing contractor "while you have the books in your hand".

If you hear you don't want steam heat or hot water radiators for your home consider the
conversation ended and find another contractor, they are out there and the good ones
have been at it a very long time.

The one pipe steam system is a very good system to install and heat with and properly maintained they
will lasts for many decades. The gas fired one pipe wet steam boiler for the apartment above my
fathers grocery store was the size of a typing table stand which is not very big and we were never
cold no matter how cold it got when we lived there.

The one pipe diverter tee system lets you run a smaller pipe for hot water heat and you could heat
the basement and two car garage as well as long as its done right