Power Outage Safety Zone, Hand Fed Boiler

 
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hotblast1357
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 6:51 am

lsayre wrote:Why are you assuming (insisting) that it will still flow by gravity when the homes two main zones are also gravity flowing. That is not its design intent at all. Let it flow for awhile (several hours at least) with the two main home heating zones shut off, so you can once and for all prove to yourself (and set your mind at ease) that it is going to do what you want it to do when the power is out. 15 minutes is not a very good test.
but larry.. that was the design, I don't have a means of shutting off my house main zones when im not here lol they flow allll the time.
i just figured that with the baseboard directly above the boiler, it would flow through that first and not the house zones, but apparently the path of least resistance is the zones.


 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 6:53 am

combustion fan just came back on, a'stat setting at 170, so opening the zones back up dropped the boiler temp 25 degrees in roughly 8 minutes, I didnt think it flow'd that good lol

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 6:56 am

When your power fails, will your homes two main heating zone loops be fully closed off by their respective zone valves?

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 6:58 am

lol they do not have zone valves, everything is open.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 7:02 am

Now I'm back to being totally confused again. Why do you need the emergency back-up dump zone when you already have a gravity zone based system that is maintaining respectable boiler temperatures?

I would venture to speculate that the Bernoulli Principle at work is what is keeping the emergency back-up zone loop from flowing, but that would be beyond the scope of this forum. But to defeat its impact requires that the already flowing zones stop flowing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli's_principle
Last edited by lsayre on Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 7:16 am, edited 2 times in total.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 7:07 am

PEX PEX PEX lol im worried that the pex will get to hot when gravity flowing, since being lit, (9/26) I have witnessed a couple times that my dump zone comes on, which is set at 200, the question is that during the middle of winter, when my fire is full bore, and the power goes out, how hot will it get when gravity flowing.. I know it will flow, and not blow the prv, because I have my pressure set at 10 lbs, and at 180 its around 12-13, so it wont get to 30 anytime soon lol im just worried that it will gravity flow 240 and up during a outage.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 7:39 am

A (perhaps overly simplistic) way to state the Bernoulli Principle is: Where velocity is high, pressure is low, and where velocity is low, pressure is high.

By flowing decently, your existing zones are creating low pressure zones, and your non flowing to lesserly flowing emergency back-up dump zone is in a higher pressure state by comparison. To where will water prefer to flow? Into an already existing lower pressure zone, or into a newly introduced (by opening the fail open zone valve) higher pressure zone?
Last edited by lsayre on Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.


 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 7:45 am

so I guess ill have to come up with another fail safe, I guess the only other thing is a UPS to power the pump and modine fan. $$$$

 
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 7:57 am

Or add T-Stat controlled zone valves to your two main zones.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 8:00 am

the only down fall to that is, I would have to open my system back up, purchase and install the two zone valves, and then it would deff dump a lot more due to it not gravity flowing all the time, think it would be easier to have a battery back up lol

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 8:01 am

and it still doesnt explain why the gravity zone wouldnt flow until I drained some water starting the flow for it.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 9:12 am

hotblast1357 wrote:and it still doesnt explain why the gravity zone wouldnt flow until I drained some water starting the flow for it.
You lowered the pressure. You increased the velocity. They are inverse related. See above.

I thought you had no desire to have any potential for water greater than 200 degrees flowing through your PEX (gravity or otherwise). The easiest way to accomplish that in a power outage situation is to have them fail closed via zone valves. If (during a power outage) your back-up/back-up will not flow, you will have greater than 200 degree water in the PEX.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 9:31 am

your right, I don't wish to push the limits of pex, because it seems like no one knows what they are lol

if I install zone valves in my zones, and they are shut when power is loss, and my gravity zone does not flow, I still wouldnt have greater than 200 degree water in my pex because the zone valves will be shut, I would think my boiler will just over heat way to much and eventually blow off.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 9:34 am

I have a suggestion. Run a bunch of hot water and get the boiler working hard, then kill the power and see what happens.

 
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Post by hotblast1357 » Sat. Nov. 14, 2015 9:38 am

i can do this right now, wife just took a 25 minute shower running the boiler down to 140, lol ill kill the power when the a'stat is satisfied.


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