Electrical Caluations

 
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bowersox1
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Post by bowersox1 » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 12:17 am

I am in need of someone who can understand and figure out some electrical for me. Due to my current health issues I have times where I am unable to do more then go to the bathroom. I am looking to install a battery back up for the stoker this way my girlfriend doesn't have to mess with the stoker if and when power is lost. I don't want a generator for back up cause if girlfriend isn't here I might be unable to tend to it.
I know how to figure the wattage I have. the stoker and distribution blower usage is 460 watts at full load.
I am buying a AIMS Power Model PICOGLF20W12V120VR Pure sine Inverter charger. I know it's 2,000 watt but this way I can at least run a light or 2 in house.

I am looking to have the battery back up be able to last for 24 hours at 460 watts give or take a few watts. I need someone to tell me what amp hour batteries I need to get to achieve the 24 hour run time. Would I be better with 1, 2, 3 battery bank? Which type of battery will give best performance for this application? I hope someone can provide me with some info. I am looking at getting DEKA brand batteries if this also helps.


 
waldo lemieux
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Post by waldo lemieux » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 8:41 am

A Battery Backup for My Pocono

Start at the top of page two. Not trying to talk you into anything, but how about buying an inverter for your car/truck and youll automatically be maintaining your batteries when you run your car.

 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 9:20 am

As my neighbor Waldo Lemiex has said an
an inverter is a good choice.

Another option for you may be a household generator,
wait and let me explain. The electrical companies have
rebate/installation programs for whole house generators
or at least they did, perhaps a whole house propane generator
is a solution and your medical condition is a legitimate concern for
an electric utility and the county health department where you live
may be an avenue to ask for help finding grant monies to pay for it.

You have made a good choice with installing a coal stoker.

The whole house generator would be a good investment and these machines
have become so smart that they can call the home generator repair company
if thier is a problem I believe.

I believe that there are at least 2 brands that run automatic start up cycling programs
for propane gasoline gen. sets that that start the generator and run it off line automatically every month and are connected to the hard wire phone lines to contact the generator sales/repair company that will come and service it and make any repairs.

The other issues are carrying an extension cord to your car, lifting the hood, connecting the extension cord,
starting the car, walking back into the home with the cord and plugging it in. The Biggest one is making sure you have a flashlight handy so you can avoid falling in a power outage.

 
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nepacoal
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Post by nepacoal » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 10:17 am

I just replaced a broken Tripp-Lite APS750 with a new AIMS 1000W pure sine wave inverter/charger and a 125AH VMAX battery. This is the 1000W model similar to your 2000W unit. I would recommend using an AGM deep cycle battery. They can sit unused for much longer than normal lead acid batteries and will last around 10 years, maybe a little longer. Normal lead acids might only go 4 or 5 years.

There are quite a few on-line calculators for use on solar power websites or inverter websites. You just need to take into account your duty cycle and battery depth of discharge target. My hand fed controls and pumps only draw 176 W when running so using those online calculators I get between 5 and 6 hours of runtime with my 125AH battery. On average, my system runs 10 minutes per hour (much less above 30 degrees and more below 15 degrees) and at idle only uses 4W. 5hrx60min=300min. 360min/10min duty cycle nets me around 30 hours of backup.

Even discounting for 90% efficiency, this still nets more than 24 hours of backup for my handfed. I was shooting for 24 hours at 30 degrees... It was originally designed to power my dump zone during outages but with such a low power draw, I get around 1 day of heat with the safety of the dump zone.
Last edited by nepacoal on Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 12:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 12:20 pm

I'm guessing that a single regular car battery (maybe 500amp) connected to an inverter and then connected to the appliance might keep it running for a few hours.

So 3 car or deep cycle batteries may suffice. Of course, someone would have to do a manual switch over.

When power goes back on, simply recharge the batteries with a cheap battery charger.

Of course you could supply the juice to the appliance via your automobile as well ? I used my hybrid car's battery and an inverter to supply electricity for my frig & lights &TV for 10 days of no power in one instance. Used about 5 gallons of gas.

 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 3:20 pm

http://www.scienceshareware.com/images/Bike-gen/p ... -cycle.gif

^^^ found chart showing discharge rates ... voltage over time

If it helps

 
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McGiever
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Post by McGiever » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 4:14 pm

DMIII, Do not over simplify something that is not all that simple. :roll:

Car batteries are not built for deep cycle discharge. Even batteries that are built for deep cycle discharge can have their usefull service life drastically reduced by over discharging them.
50% is the max that they may be discharge and still give a reasonable expected life of service.

X2 on the AGM's...cost more but upkeep is minimal and life is considerably longer than flooded lead acid batteries.

bowersox1, Will you want this to be automatic and seamlessly switch over without human intervention? Or loosing the fire and relighting whenever is not a big deal?


 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 5:42 pm

For a 24 volt system you would need at least 1,000 AH of storage (battery bank) to draw 460 Watts non stop for 24 straight hours while not drawing your battery bank below 50% DOD (depth of discharge). At least 2,000 AH of storage to do it at 12 volts. And at least 500 AH for a 48 volt system.

I seriously doubt the system would run full out non stop round the clock though.

 
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davidmcbeth3
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Mon. Sep. 28, 2015 8:03 pm

McGiever wrote:DMIII, Do not over simplify something that is not all that simple. :roll:

Car batteries are not built for deep cycle discharge. Even batteries that are built for deep cycle discharge can have their usefull service life drastically reduced by over discharging them.
50% is the max that they may be discharge and still give a reasonable expected life of service.

X2 on the AGM's...cost more but upkeep is minimal and life is considerably longer than flooded lead acid batteries.

bowersox1, Will you want this to be automatic and seamlessly switch over without human intervention? Or loosing the fire and relighting whenever is not a big deal?
I don't think the OP has continual power outages .. or at least the OP did not provide this fact. So I considered a power outage is a rare event and went from there. You are correct, completely discharging a battery is not good; hence my guess of 3 batteries for a 24 hr time period.

 
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McGiever
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Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar

Post by McGiever » Tue. Sep. 29, 2015 2:08 am

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
McGiever wrote:DMIII, Do not over simplify something that is not all that simple. :roll:

Car batteries are not built for deep cycle discharge. Even batteries that are built for deep cycle discharge can have their usefull service life drastically reduced by over discharging them.
50% is the max that they may be discharge and still give a reasonable expected life of service.

X2 on the AGM's...cost more but upkeep is minimal and life is considerably longer than flooded lead acid batteries.

bowersox1, Will you want this to be automatic and seamlessly switch over without human intervention? Or loosing the fire and relighting whenever is not a big deal?
I don't think the OP has continual power outages .. or at least the OP did not provide this fact. So I considered a power outage is a rare event and went from there. You are correct, completely discharging a battery is not good; hence my guess of 3 batteries for a 24 hr time period.
Fair enough if ruining batteries is acceptable. Not to mention the OP's self stated occasional debilitating health issues only permitting him limited physcial activities.
I think your idea is not the solution he is looking for.
We are all so glad it is working so well for you though. :)

 
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Post by bowersox1 » Fri. Oct. 02, 2015 4:21 am

We get a lot of blips in our power and some outages for 4 to 5 hours lately. I know last winter folks on the other road was out of power for 16 hours cause of a car crash that took down 2 poles. I'm using the 24 hours as a worse case. I picked the unit so that if at 1am the power goes it will automatically switch over and I wouldn't loss fire and will switch back over when power is restored. Last year I tried the car inverator. Till I get up get the plug in and going the fire is out so have to restart the fire. Generator is ok too but, With my current medical issues I don't know from hour to hour how ill be. I want the set up to be hands free so my girlfriend or step mom will not have to do anything. Less chance to of something getting messed up. Plus last time girlfriend tried to restart the fire it wasn't good.

So i'm looking at trying to find out how about what size batteries to get to last 24 hours. I know I want the deep cycles. Just need to know how many amp hour battery and how many to give me a 24 hour run time without killing the batteries.

Thanks everyone for your input and assist.

 
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Post by oliver power » Fri. Oct. 02, 2015 6:16 am

lzaharis wrote:As my neighbor Waldo Lemiex has said an
an inverter is a good choice.

Another option for you may be a household generator,
wait and let me explain. The electrical companies have
rebate/installation programs for whole house generators
or at least they did, perhaps a whole house propane generator
is a solution and your medical condition is a legitimate concern for
an electric utility and the county health department where you live
may be an avenue to ask for help finding grant monies to pay for it.

You have made a good choice with installing a coal stoker.

The whole house generator would be a good investment and these machines
have become so smart that they can call the home generator repair company
if thier is a problem I believe.

I believe that there are at least 2 brands that run automatic start up cycling programs
for propane gasoline gen. sets that that start the generator and run it off line automatically every month and are connected to the hard wire phone lines to contact the generator sales/repair company that will come and service it and make any repairs.

The other issues are carrying an extension cord to your car, lifting the hood, connecting the extension cord,
starting the car, walking back into the home with the cord and plugging it in. The Biggest one is making sure you have a flashlight handy so you can avoid falling in a power outage.
I had a whole house generator installed. Expensive (one shot out of pocket), but completely hands free automatic. Any power glitches/outages, it fires up, and we loose nothing. Like said, you may be able to get help due to your medical condition. Mine runs on propane. I feel it was a good investment. Wife doesn't have to be concerned when I'm not home. Should the power go out, within seconds, generator is running.

 
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SMITTY
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Post by SMITTY » Fri. Oct. 02, 2015 10:21 am

^^^ That would be the way to go IMO. Batteries are heavy, and EXPENSIVE today. Can't even find any car batteries for less than $100 now ... :x

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Fri. Oct. 02, 2015 1:07 pm

460 Watts x 24 hours = 11,040 Watt Hours

11,040 / 0.90 ~= 12,270 Watt Hours required after inverter inefficiency is considered

11,040 Watt Hours + 12,270 Watt Hours = 23,310 Watt Hours of batteries required to avoid going below 50% DOD within a 24 hour period.

23,310 Watt Hours / 12 volts = 1,942 Amp Hours worth of batteries required (not assuming any battery inefficiency, wire inefficiency, additional inverter inefficiency, etc...)

 
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plumberman
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Post by plumberman » Fri. Oct. 02, 2015 5:04 pm

not to change mind, I also did the whole house generator back up. auto switch over[you do nothing] fridge, freezers,well pump all run. wife has no worries or if were both at work no problems. just saying to look at all angles and what is the best bang for your buck/wallet. good luck in your search!


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