Burning bit and anthracite together...

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Ky Speedracer On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:45 am

hotblast1357 wrote:we'll give you a b+ though for giving us the right explanation! lol


Thanks HB! I'll take a b+ !

When I went to bed last night it was 40 degrees outside, 240 over the load door, 168 in the pipe and 70 in the house. This morning at 5am it was 26 outside, 236 over the door, 121 in the pipe and 70 in the house.
Obviously the mature fire with a little deeper coal bed works much better. My guess is I had probably a total of 60 lbs in it after tending last night at 5:30.
So, this morning I filled 'er up. This stove has a big fire box. I have at least 80lbs in there. It's still not all the way to the top of the firebrick. Probably 3/4 to 1 inch still sticking up.
Anthracite is completely different than bit when reloading. When I throw bit on a hot coal bed it takes off like dry wood. When you add fresh anthracite to a hot coal bed it seems to want to try and go out. I took my time adding the additional 50lbs or so of new coal. I put on a couple of inches, dug a little hole in the middle to keep some glowing coal exposed and waited for flame. Then I did it again. I didn't want any puff backs.
It's full and burning now. Difinately a little more time consuming than bit at tending time but is much more stable and steady throughout the burn.
After I get a good feel for the anthracite, and the night temps stay in the 20s, I will experiment with adding some bit to it in order to see how the combination work together.
Ky Speedracer
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil


Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:53 am

a tip to faster tending times, 10 minutes before you do anything, crack the ash door open to stoke the fire, or if you dont feel safe doing so just open the primary up all the way, you just have to be certain to not leave it alone and make sure to put the primaries back after, but a stoked fire will not drop temp so much when reloading, just be safe.
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: New Yorker WC 90
Coal Size/Type: anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Ky Speedracer On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:25 am

Thanks HB. That is good advice. I can see the merit of doing that.

A couple of early observations and thoughts...
As I've said, the firebox is huge in this thing. So any adjustments I make, I need to be patient with so it has a chance to respond. Maybe as much as an hour before I can really evaluate results.
Another observation is that I think Lightning is right on about the secondary air controls needing to be independently controlled separate from the primary. Because the fire box on this is as big as it is, with the ash pan door shut, it really needs all the primary air it can get to completely ignite the fresh coal. The anthracite appears to like a little secondary air upon ignition. If I open the secondary air controls from the ash pan area it tends to reroute the primary air above the fire. By robbing and rerouting the primary air, the fresh coal has trouble igniting, then cosequently, the rerouted (or stolen) secondary air just cools the top of the fresh anthracite coal... The best result I had (at least at this early stage) was to close the secondary air controls completely, open the primary air control and crack the load door an inch or so. That seemed to heat the firebed under the anthracite and allowed the air from the cracked open load door to to ignite the gases above the coal bed (gorgeous blue flames).
Yeah I know, that was a long winded blabber session to say Lightning was right... I need independant control of my secondary air... ;)
Ky Speedracer
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:41 am

not to argue, but i disagree... i have proven in my hotblast that you do not need independent control of each, it will work itself out. i had 3/4" black iron pipe in mine for secondary burn tubes, wide open, no control, but while tending i would crack the load door, to burn off the initial large amount of gasses, and have the ash door open about 2-3". but once the fire was established, and not "crackling" and "popping", i would close both doors, and set my primary air, and walk away, and it would burn great.
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: New Yorker WC 90
Coal Size/Type: anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Lightning On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:36 am

I think the difference is they are sized differently. I think KY's are capable of moving more secondary air where yours are more limiting by design.
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Overmodified/Bored out Clayton 1537
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Awesome Size

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 10:53 am

so then just shut his flaps to 3/4" open, i had 20 holes drilled in my tubes.
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: New Yorker WC 90
Coal Size/Type: anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Ky Speedracer On: Sat Nov 14, 2015 7:59 pm

I wonder if the size of the firebox has anything to do with it?
I'm trying to feed oxygen to fire box that's at least 25% larger than HB's 1300 series furnace. I think the primary control opening is the same size on both stoves.
As soon as I open those secondarys even 10% the temp will start to drop... Like the air starts to bypass...
I don't know... I'll have to keep experimenting...
Ky Speedracer
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sun Nov 15, 2015 8:43 am

the primary control is the same thing, but it depends how open you open yours, i never opened mine more than 2.5 turns out, it always ran between .75 and 1.5 turns out the majority of the time, how open do you open yours? it sounds like your just giving it to much secondary air, how long have you let it run like that? maybe just try it for a day and see what happens, crack your secondary pipes open, and open your primary on the door a little more. and watch it for a day, it shouldnt go out.
hotblast1357
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: New Yorker WC 90
Coal Size/Type: anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace


Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Ky Speedracer On: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:10 pm

hotblast1357 wrote:the primary control is the same thing, but it depends how open you open yours, i never opened mine more than 2.5 turns out, it always ran between .75 and 1.5 turns out the majority of the time, how open do you open yours? it sounds like your just giving it to much secondary air, how long have you let it run like that? maybe just try it for a day and see what happens, crack your secondary pipes open, and open your primary on the door a little more. and watch it for a day, it shouldnt go out.


Once the fire is established I run the primary control about 1 turn out. It burned about 30 hours like that over the weekend before it needed tending. It held a nice steady temp around 240 degrees over the load door before slowly falling at about the 26 hour mark.
As for the secondary air control I tried to open and close it on an established fire and it didnt seem to have much impact on the ant fire at all. No real change in the in temp over the load door or in the flue pipe.

A couple of observations about the difference in the characteristics of burning bit and anthracite;

*The shake down of the anthracite ash is much more labor intensive than it is with bit (at least in this type of stove). The anthracite ash packs pretty tightly in all the corners and along the edge of the grates. I had to spend a fair amount of time with a long poker scraping down the sides and cleaning out the corners.
Different from bit in regard to the shakedown process. When I shake with bit it all just falls out without a lot of effort.

*There is a little more fuss trying to get the fresh anthracite coal to ignite. You have to be conscious to not smother the fire.
With bit, you just throw it on and look out... lol

*Ironically the anthracite is much dustier and has a lot of fines in it. This kind of surprised me a little. Not unmanageable...just a something I didn't expect.
I use lump bit coal so there are no fines and no dust. Just fill a bucket with some baseball and softball sized pieces and carry it in. If it's cold out throw a football sized piece or two on top.

*Anthracite is MUCH more stable.
*There is NO smoke.
*There is NO smell.
*The extended burn times at low temps a very nice too.

I can see where some people may not have the patience to burn anthracite in a stove of this type. In my opinion the "V" shaped firebox and the shaker grates are NOT ideally designed to burn anthracite coal to say the least.
Lightning's modification to tie the front and rear rocker grates together so it takes the slop out of that connection is a MUST to burn anthracite in this type of stove. If you don't, I'm not sure you could ever effectively clear enough ash from the rear of the firebox for it to burn efficiently.

As for bit coal (or least the lump coal from eastern KY), the Hot Blast stove/furnace is a bit coal burning machine. There are a couple of modifications that you can make that are nice but it will burn bit right out of the box...and burns it very well. FOR THE MONEY, I'm not sure you can find anything that burns bit and wood much better.

All and all I'm very happy with what I've learned about anthracite coal and how it works in my stove.
The positive characteristics of it way out weigh any negatives so far. I'm sure as time goes on I'll develop some routines that will help smooth out my anthracite tending issues.

I'll be curious to see the difference in the burning characteristics between the two fuels when it gets really cold out.
Ky Speedracer
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Lightning On: Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:50 pm

KY, very good evaluation there. I'm glad you have an opportunity to experiment with anthracite. You are seeing the grand advantages with the long steady heat outputs. But like you said, that awesome Kentucky Bit has some great characteristics also.

As far as the ash getting wedged in the corners, I don't get too obsessive about it. Some ash packed in the right places actually has benefit. Usually it takes about a week for me to see the best temperature spread between over the load and flue pipe after firing up from a clean fire box. I've conclude that it's because ash packs into little nooks where primary air could get around the fuel bed, between fire bricks and up thru the corners for example. So some ash in the right places is a good thing. Ash will also protect the grate frame, so I don't mind if some gathers there between bricks and the frame, on that ledge.

Keep up the great reporting! :D
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Overmodified/Bored out Clayton 1537
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Awesome Size

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Ky Speedracer On: Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:59 am

Who says you cant burn bit and anthracite together... :yes:

I let the furnace burn out last Tuesday because it's been relatively warm here.
So we have been burning in the fireplace some at night.
I have attached some images of burning a mixture of anthracite and bit together. it makes for a beautiful warm long burning fire.
I start the bit by using a little charcoal. Let it burn for an hour and then scooped on the anthracite nut.
It takes about 5 minutes for the anthracite to fully ignite. It makes for a gorgeous burn.
I started this fire at about 4 Sunday afternoon and it burned very nicely until midnight. With temps outside in the low 40s and rain it kept the living area very comfortable for several hours.

The last image is at about 9:00. four or five hours into the burn.

I know this is an open burn and the characteristics of this burning together in a stove will vary...but its a fun experiment.
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Ky Speedracer
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Florence HotBlast NO.68 & Potbelly
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: HotBlast 1557M
Coal Size/Type: Ky Lump & Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Tue Dec 01, 2015 1:15 pm

That looks like fun. Thanks for posting the pics.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: Lightning On: Tue Dec 01, 2015 3:46 pm

That's awesome! I didn't know anthracite would burn without a draft forced thru it. I bet stove size would burn very good that way.

This helps confirms that the fuel bed in a stove does in fact create it's own draft, which is why I see .005 stronger negative pressure under the grates compared to over.

Thanks for running that experiment. :)
Lightning
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Overmodified/Bored out Clayton 1537
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite/Awesome Size

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: blrman07 On: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:10 am

Arrgh....burning coal does not create it's own draft. There is a draft occurring because the grate basket is open on the bottom. The burning coal puts heat up the chimney. Heat going up the chimney pulls air through the bed from the bottom of the grate.

Chimneys create draft, not coal.

I service stoves and boilers. I check to make sure there is draft before I light off the equipment by holding a Bic lighter at the thimble on the chimney. If it's weak I verify by lighting some paper laying in the thimble to verify the smoke goes up and not out.

No fire but I still have draft.

Where is it coming from?
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: Burning bit and anthracite together...

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:40 am

Must be from the oil in the tank . toothy
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both