Furnace Questions

 
the duck
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Post by the duck » Sat. Oct. 17, 2015 11:32 am

Hello,
I am hoping to heat a 2,300 sqft house (20 years old) with a coal or pellet furnace that attaches to my existing oil furnace ductwork. I am nervous about the cash outlay for unknown results, and about the long term viability of coal and pellet supplies.

One dealer recommends a Keystoker, and will install it, but won't get it down in the basement for me (he'll take over once I get the furnace in place).
Another dealer recommends a Leisure Line AK-110.
A third dealer recommends a pellet fueled furnace, the Caddy Alterna.

I'm looking for advice/opinions on the best option. I live in upstate New York and fuel oil costs are brutal. I should also say that I want to exhaust the furnace with a power vent, and like everyone else, want the exhaust to be effective.

Any thoughts, advice, options, opinions would be greatly appreciated - thanks for your time!


 
lzaharis
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Post by lzaharis » Sat. Oct. 17, 2015 3:17 pm

As Sting would say "Depends".

Which Keystoker furnace are they recommending?

The Leisure line AK110 does not have BTU rating so thats a non starter fro me anyway.

You understand that the direct vent units have two blowers-one for the stoker and a
second blower for the flue vent piping.

How are you going to get the coal in the basement, window access for a chute into a coal bin,
window with a chute for bags?

Why are you not looking at a dual fuel Keystoker furnace???????? you can use the same chimney for a dual fuel appliance. As far as I know you can purchase a keystoker furnace with a dual fuel option- I just purchased
a dual fuel KAA-4-1 boiler to eliminate the second boiler.

Have you examined a using keystoker boiler with hot water heat exchanger
and fan in your furnace plenum?, and you also will have the benefit of domestic hot water.

If they will only will set the furnace up after you lower it into the basement
thats also a non starter at least for me.

if you only have access by a set of stairs you have few options other than
1. one or more long plank ramps made from plywood and 2 by 12's
to get the boiler or furnace in the house and into the basement.

2 three heavy weight 4 wheel furniture movers for the furnace or boiler
for the ride down the stairs and across the basement floor to the plenum.

3. an electric winch(not a cheap one-preferably a Warn or Ramsey winch

4. two sets of long web straps to wrap the furnace or boiler shell(minus the skin)
to safely lower it down into the basement.
5. pizza and beer bribery for four of your friends that could help

Your going to have to nail the ramp in place while you lower it in thebasement to
prevent it from sliding.

I would chat with Don Snow at Keystoker on Monday about your options as far as a dual fuel keystoker furnace or boiler goes for your home 1-570-385-3873

 
the duck
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Post by the duck » Sat. Oct. 17, 2015 3:38 pm

Thanks for your reply - that's a lot to digest.

The Keystoker model the first dealer has recommended is a Koker. He's been to my house, seen the basement etc. He's a one man operation and won't get the furnace to the basement, which I'd rather pay someone to do than do myself. I know it sounds lazy, but I'd like a pro installer to take care of the job from start to finish and stand behind his work after the installation.

The Leisure Line dealer has yet to be to my house, but is coming this week. In our phone discussion he has recommended the AK-110, but that may change once he sees the place first hand. This dealer will do the whole job, including getting the furnace down into the basement.

I hope to move coal in 40# bags through a small basement window, a ton at a time.

The direct vent option is what my oil furnace uses, and the only chimney I have is for a small fireplace on the first floor. My impression from the Keystoker dealer was that this chimney was not an option to exhaust a furnace into.

The Keystoker dual fuel option is interesting, but I get back to the problem of my local dealer not getting the furnace placed in the basement - no other Keystoker dealers in my area that I know of...

I know this is a coal burning forum, but have you ever heard of the Caddy Alterna pellet furnace? One local dealer recommends that too.

Hard to know the best move - a lot of money to spend, and want to be sure I'm going to have a warm house instead of the 62 degrees I'm used to...

 
franco b
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Post by franco b » Sat. Oct. 17, 2015 3:42 pm

Another option would be to put a hand fired stove vented into that fireplace to supplement the oil.

 
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Rick 386
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Post by Rick 386 » Sat. Oct. 17, 2015 10:59 pm

franco b wrote:Another option would be to put a hand fired stove vented into that fireplace to supplement the oil.
Not a bad suggestion..................

You would probably want to stay away from pellets unless you have room to store them and keep them perfectly dry all winter. Damp or wet pelles do not burn well at all.

Damp or wet coal can be dried out with no ill effects. And you could order a large load, store it outside uncovered for years and years and it will still burn.

With any heating appliance, the venting becomes the big issue. It is preferred to have a masonry chimney but they can be power vented or direct vented and still work. The LL AK model is more of a furnace in that it has a larger blower fan to tie directly into the existing HVAC ductwork. The other units you mention will also tie into the existing ductwork but you will probably need to use the current fan to distribute the heat throughout the house.

The Koker and LL Pioneer or Hyfire II are very similar.

Rick

 
the duck
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Post by the duck » Sat. Oct. 17, 2015 11:24 pm

Thanks Rick,
Good information to have.
I'm not sure about using the existing fireplace chimney as an exhaust option. The fireplace front is flush with my exterior wall - so I think the furnace in the basement would have to go out the basement wall (under the deck), then make a 90 degree turn through the deck to connect to the flue. I also don't know if that would make the fireplace unusable.

I have a friend who has a Keystoker Koker in his basement and has been power venting it. I think he's mostly happy with the set up, but he has to use plywood to protect his siding from getting stained/dirty from the exhaust, and I worry about wind blowing exhaust fumes back into the house. Probably paranoia on my part, but I'm thinking I might be spending a boat load of money on this operation, and I want it to work as hassle-free as possible from the get-go.

I know there are a lot of personal needs involved, but given the two options, would you go for the Koker or the Leisure Line AK-110? I'm thinking specifically for a 2,300 sqft house, power venting etc. These two seem to be the easiest for me to get my hands on in my area, but the Keystoker guy won't get it down the stairs for me (kind of a big deal for me).

Any additional thoughts are welcome.
Thanks,
Matt

 
titleist1
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Post by titleist1 » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 7:12 am

Not knowing what your house requires BTU-wise makes it a bit of a WAG on the size unit to recommend. What BTU rating does your current furnace have, that might get you in the ballpark?


 
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Post by Djcoak6071 » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 7:20 am

the duck wrote:Hello,
I am hoping to heat a 2,300 sqft house (20 years old) with a coal or pellet furnace that attaches to my existing oil furnace ductwork. I am nervous about the cash outlay for unknown results, and about the long term viability of coal and pellet supplies.

One dealer recommends a Keystoker, and will install it, but won't get it down in the basement for me (he'll take over once I get the furnace in place).
Another dealer recommends a Leisure Line AK-110.
A third dealer recommends a pellet fueled furnace, the Caddy Alterna.

I'm looking for advice/opinions on the best option. I live in upstate New York and fuel oil costs are brutal. I should also say that I want to exhaust the furnace with a power vent, and like everyone else, want the exhaust to be effective.

Any thoughts, advice, options, opinions would be greatly appreciated - thanks for your time!
have you looked into a Yukon at all? Will burn oil wood and coal

 
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Post by Pacowy » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 10:33 am

franco b wrote:Another option would be to put a hand fired stove vented into that fireplace to supplement the oil.
Using that flue seems like a good possibility but I have a couple of issues with this suggestion:

a. The OP put this in the stoker section. It's kind of ironic to hear the hand-fired crowd complain elsewhere about posts from stoker people - even where a thread is trying to compare the two - then feel free to jump in advocating hand-fired equipment in a thread like this where the OP is attempting to evaluate stoker options. Are we on a one-way street here?

b. Related to (a), why do you seem to think that a hand-fired stove would be needed to make use of the fireplace? A variety of stoker manufacturers produce rear-vent and/or hearth units that could be considered for that type of installation.

Mike

 
the duck
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Post by the duck » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 11:17 am

Hello,
The use of the existing fireplace chimney may be a non-starter, I'm not sure. I've attached two photos of the fireplace and the chimney. When I initially had the dealer over for an estimate it was to put a wood or coal stove in place of the fireplace. He looked at the chimney liner pipe (no masonry) and thought it wouldn't be able to take the intensity of heat coming off a wood or coal stove. That's when we started talking about a stoker furnace in the basement with a power vent and plumbing it into the existing hot air ductwork.

I do wonder if the furnace was in the basement almost directly under the fireplace, if the exhaust could go out the basement wall, up through the deck, through the bottom of the fireplace and into the existing flue? Perhaps the exhaust would still be too hot for the existing flue liner - that's what the original dealer believed in any case. He was in favor of the power vent idea.

Interested to hear any opinions that would get a coal furnace installed into my basement, tapped into my existing ductwork, exhausted well, all for the low, low price of less than $6k... Also curious to hear experienced opinions on the long term availability and cost efficiency of anthracite rice coal with the current prevailing attitudes toward coal - rumors about prices escalating and lessened supplies etc.

Thanks for your time - Matt

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the duck
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Post by the duck » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 11:36 am

p.s. I'd never heard of the Yukon multi-fuel furnace before (it was mentioned above). In looking at it, it sounds like the exhaust needs might require a new chimney altogether. I'm also not sure I could get that size/weight of a furnace into my basement - no bilco doors. I do like the idea of the multi-fuel though, nice option to have.

Lastly, a previous poster asked about my oil furnace's BTU's. I looked and it's a Lennox with a maximum output of 85,000 to 95,000 BTU/H.

Thanks for all the information!

 
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Post by franco b » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 11:43 am

Pacowy wrote:a. The OP put this in the stoker section. It's kind of ironic to hear the hand-fired crowd complain elsewhere about posts from stoker people - even where a thread is trying to compare the two - then feel free to jump in advocating hand-fired equipment in a thread like this where the OP is attempting to evaluate stoker options. Are we on a one-way street here?

b. Related to (a), why do you seem to think that a hand-fired stove would be needed to make use of the fireplace? A variety of stoker manufacturers produce rear-vent and/or hearth units that could be considered for that type of installation.
I think that argument is just plain silly whether brought up by stoker or hand fired people. I have posted many times in the stoker section since principals of combustion and control are universal. I do believe that stokers have the potential to be more efficient because air intake and feed can be more perfectly matched to conditions. Feeding a measured amount of fuel steadily is always better no matter the fuel.

For central heating I think a stoker is the only practical way to go, but not with a power vent that has to run 24/7. An oil burner cycles on and off but not a stoker.

I don't like a stoker in the living space because of noise and just plain ugly as well as bulky. A hand fired can be handsome and provide emergency heat as well if power goes out. Even if power does not go out the rising cost of electricity is another factor. I did recommend it as a supplement and option in addition to whatever is downstairs not as a final solution. The chimney is already there.

 
the duck
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Post by the duck » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 12:00 pm

Hi Franco,
The power vent issue seems to be the sticking point with a lot of experienced users. Do you think it's dangerous, smelly, damaging to siding, all of the above? Just curious. They seem to be a great option instead of a chimney and can save a bunch of money vs. installing a new chimney.
Thanks for your time,
Matt

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 12:41 pm

You must look further than just the initial price when it comes to any combustion exhaust options. Rapidly spinning moving parts in a hot and abrasive environment is a maintenance headache unless you are that person who is proactive on his upkeep, cause being only reactive is going to hurt in more ways than one.$$$

This direct/power vent adaptation came over from oil appliances, which as *francob* already mentioned was only needed for an intermittent run cycle, where as with the stoker it then becomes a 24-7 cycle the whole heating season. :sick:

The dealers like to promote this option as it can do wonders to increase their stove sales where they had never had even a chance before. (and service calls too)

 
the duck
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Post by the duck » Sun. Oct. 18, 2015 12:55 pm

All good points about the power vent option. I have to admit it's appealing from the initial cost perspective though...
Do you know if a coal furnace in the basement of a house can have a stainless chimney vs. a masonry chimney?
Do you know what the approximate minimum cost of a chimney of either type, coming from a basement is?

Thanks again for the input - Matt

p.s. sorry for my naiveté on these topics - Doesn't it seem like if you're already through the basement wall with the power vent ductwork, that if you turned a 90 degree and ran straight up for another 15 - 20 feet you'd have a chimney? Is all the additional cost in the stainless? Would doing something like this allow you to avoid all the 24/7 moving parts of the power vent?


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