Why is McCain the best choice for President?

Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:20 am

stockingfull wrote:In candidate McCain's absence, all I can say is, "Whew! Sure is good to know there are more than enough enlistees to fight all the fronts I've got in mind to win the 'War on Terror.' "

:roll:

On Greg's point, GI sentiment is hardly uniform (pun intended). In fact, I was making calls for Obama shortly before the Feb 5 primary in NY and happened to speak to the grandfather of a GI who came home in a box last summer. Far from being concerned that withdrawal would be the equivalent of "waving the white flag of surrender," or that his grandson's death would thereby have been "in vain," this man (himself a Korean vet) spoke of his grandson having been lied to by the recruiters and not wanting to go back after his last visit home, I think for the '06 Xmas holiday. He was much less sure of which Democrat he wanted to see elected than he was about making sure more of our boys aren't sacrificed over there. Put bluntly, he thought his grandson's loss was a waste.

I know nobody likes Micheal Moore here, but it's not easy to forget the GI mother in "Fahrenheit 9/11" who was transformed from being proud soldier's parent into anti-war protester by her son's death in Iraq. So, from my point of view, I'd rather see or hear the war support statistics of families whose loved ones have made the ultimate sacrifice over there than the naturally patriotic and hopeful sentiments of the families of GI's who are still, um, "vertical."


I do not personally understand what your quote means..."spoke of his grandson having been lied to by the recruiters and not wanting to go back after his last visit home,..."

Are you saying that his recruiters lied about his branch of service or his recruiters lied about his tours of duty? In other words are you saying that his recruiters told him he won't have to go back after Christmas '06? If that is the case...his recruiters have nothing to do with his deployment schedule.

If his recruiters lied about his branch of service to get him to sign on the dotted line to join...well, that's a no brainer...If anyone actually believes that every recruiter is going to be flat out honest with everything in the U.S. Armed Forces, well then I guess I would have to say...."Hey, I have this awesome bridge for sale out in the desert...want to buy it?"

There's 2 sets of family members that represent today's fighting members. On one side you have the family that hates this Administration and the Iraqi War and then there's the other that supports it. One side will go to the end of the earth condemning the administration and the war when their loved one comes home other than healthy. The other side will say they are proud because he/she did it for their Country! Take a guess to which side you talked to.

I know one thing...I wish I could have been there the day Grandfather saw Grandson for the first time in uniform....was his feelings strictly hate towards what could happen or was it straight Pride to see his Grandson in a U.S. Military uniform serving his country?

Another thing I know...there is nothing more demoralizing to the vast majority of Armed Forces Personnel than seeing America protest this war. People hide behind a saying "we are not protesting the Armed Forces, we are protesting the Administration and the War in Iraq." The Armed Forces see "protest". Although, there are members that are against this war but I don't see many Vets protesting. I don't know if I saw any Iraqi Freedom Vets protesting publicly. (not seeing any could be my own fault for not living in front of CNN or searching for it on the Web)

AND...YES..."Whew! Sure is good to know there are more than enough enlistees to fight all the fronts I've got in mind to win the 'War on Terror.' "
You should actually Thank God that we as Americans have volunteers STRONG enough and WILLING enough to do what some won't.

My wife's nephew left for Boot last Monday....his name is Jeff....his goals scare me....however....To him I say "Jeff, I salute you!"
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Tue Apr 01, 2008 11:32 am

One more salute...(speaking for myself and Sen. McCain because I am sure as a Vet he believes the same)

To deceased G.I. Grandson...."I render you my deepest salute! I as a living American THANK YOU, respect you, and grieve for the fact that you paid the ultimate price for your country! God Bless you! Your loss while fighting and living up to the oath you swore by was not a waste!"
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:28 pm

BugsyR wrote:I do not personally understand what your quote means..."spoke of his grandson having been lied to by the recruiters and not wanting to go back after his last visit home,..."

Are you saying that his recruiters lied about his branch of service or his recruiters lied about his tours of duty? In other words are you saying that his recruiters told him he won't have to go back after Christmas '06? If that is the case...his recruiters have nothing to do with his deployment schedule.

If his recruiters lied about his branch of service to get him to sign on the dotted line to join...well, that's a no brainer...If anyone actually believes that every recruiter is going to be flat out honest with everything in the U.S. Armed Forces, well then I guess I would have to say...."Hey, I have this awesome bridge for sale out in the desert...want to buy it?"


(Sorry, been away with my wife watching my father-in-law in the hospital last couple days, so I couldn't get back to this.)

My understanding from grandfather was that grandson had been lied to about the nature and number of deployments, stop-loss and the like.

And I'll add here that, if you want to make the argument that we should all understand that recruiters routinely lie about the nature of the enlistment contract (I've highlighted your language for emphasis), you have to recognize that with that comes the fairly elementary implication that not all families are going to be feeling "all warm and fuzzy" about their family member's service, either the length of it or the nature of it, or both, after they've signed up.

As to war protest and the effect you claim on our servicepeople, I just don't buy your assertion that protest here negatively affects everybody there. Hell, a significant number of soldiers -- all of whom volunteered -- want out, a significant number have gotten involved in anti-war efforts upon their discharge and, as I said above, a lot of families have had significant changes of heart, either when they've heard from their soldier members about what's gone on there, or when they've been either killed or injured there. Those numbers are much more significant when you consider that, at least at the beginning, everybody there had volunteered and one might conclude from that that they didn't start out opposing the war. Yet a great number of soldiers vote, and I haven't seen any sign that they vote unanimously for the leaders who sent them over there. Again, a sign of significant change in opinion.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: spc On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:46 pm

Read some of the troop blogs.
http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/

"The anti-war movement and mainstream media did a good job promoting the "5th anniversary" of the start of the war in Iraq on March 19th. Now, let's see if they are equally as zealous promoting April 9th as Iraqi Liberation Day and give some of those 4,000 the real credit they deserve!!"
-1SG C J Grisham
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:54 pm

spc wrote:Read some of the troop blogs.
http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/

"The anti-war movement and mainstream media did a good job promoting the "5th anniversary" of the start of the war in Iraq on March 19th. Now, let's see if they are equally as zealous promoting April 9th as Iraqi Liberation Day and give some of those 4,000 the real credit they deserve!!"
-1SG C J Grisham



Looks like a "Swift Boat"/White House front to me. I'm sure I can come up with many anti-war veteran blogs as well. What does that prove?....Nothing at all.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: spc On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:05 pm

Devil5052 wrote:Looks like a "Swift Boat"/White House front to me. I'm sure I can come up with many anti-war veteran blogs as well. What does that prove?....Nothing at all.
To you I'm sure, but to others, these are soldiers trying to give "A Soldier's Perspective"
A very good organization you can donate to.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:37 pm

spc wrote:
Devil5052 wrote:Looks like a "Swift Boat"/White House front to me. I'm sure I can come up with many anti-war veteran blogs as well. What does that prove?....Nothing at all.
To you I'm sure, but to others, these are soldiers trying to give "A Soldier's Perspective"
A very good organization you can donate to.



So are the patriotic, heroic soldiers who believe this war should never have been fought & we need to get out of. You can donate to them too.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: spc On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 7:50 pm

When you buy the NYT you are donating. :(

Just trying to level the playing field.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Sun Apr 06, 2008 10:14 pm

spc wrote:Read some of the troop blogs.
http://www.vetsforfreedom.org/

"The anti-war movement and mainstream media did a good job promoting the "5th anniversary" of the start of the war in Iraq on March 19th. Now, let's see if they are equally as zealous promoting April 9th as Iraqi Liberation Day and give some of those 4,000 the real credit they deserve!!"
-1SG C J Grisham


Two sides to the story:

http://www.stripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=60690&archive=true
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Mon Apr 07, 2008 2:27 pm

stockingfull wrote:
My understanding from grandfather was that grandson had been lied to about the nature and number of deployments, stop-loss and the like.
I say, shame on the recruiter for lying. If it is true then that recruiter took advantage of some naïve teenager and naïve adults. Shame on him. However….

My take on this info…”recruiter lied about nature and number of deployments and stop-loss and the like”…to me this sounds like the boy signed up after the war has started. When he went to the recruiter, what was he really thinking…that the military was going to send him to college on the Untied States’ dime or send him to a tropical paradise to sip pina coladas? You do not join the military during time of war thinking that you won’t see a combat zone….naive.

You join by signing a contract and taking an oath that states that you…
“…will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me…”
If you do not raise your right hand and do not sign…you go home! It’s as simple as that. (By the way, this contract and signature does not take place in the recruiter’s office. The recruiter is just the start. There’s plenty of time to change your mind.)


And I'll add here that, if you want to make the argument that we should all understand that recruiters routinely lie about the nature of the enlistment contract (I've highlighted your language for emphasis), you have to recognize that with that comes the fairly elementary implication that not all families are going to be feeling "all warm and fuzzy" about their family member's service, either the length of it or the nature of it, or both, after they've signed up. Do you think the people that got B.S.ed by the Yugo Car Salesman had a warm fuzzy a year later? All I say is that maybe people should think before they sign their lives away for 2,3,4,5, or 6 years! Especially during war time!!

As to war protest and the effect you claim on our servicepeople, I just don't buy your assertion that protest here negatively affects everybody there. You’re absolutely right…Don’t buy the assertion about protests negatively affecting ”everybody there”. That isn’t even MY assertion because I never said “everybody”. I said “vast majority of Armed Forces…”.
I’ll re-phrase anyway…The vast majority that I served with and personally knew while over there and while I was at my homeport were negatively affected by protests. That is taken from my personal experience, it will not be found on CNN or the internet except in this forum.


Hell, a significant number of soldiers -- all of whom volunteered -- want out, a significant number have gotten involved in anti-war efforts upon their discharge and, ...

In reference to your “significant numbers”. I’m going to refer to your article from Stars and Stripes.

“IVAW, which claims about 800 veterans of operations in Iraq”

“Vets for Freedom, which claims 11,000 Iraq and Afghanistan veterans as members”

Looking at the math here I see 11,800 Vets
800 against the war
11,000 supporting the war

Put them together and take a poll you’ll get approximately 6.8% against with 93.2% for.

Yup, in a way, I guess you can say that 6.8% is a “significant number”.

The following is in jest…not to offend but truthful humor of my experience.
Early March of ’03 I worked in a tight limited access space with 10 Marines and 6 other Sailors on a ship off the coast of Kuwait waiting for the “word” that 2 of us hoped would never come (1 older sailor and 1 older Marine). The other 15 were ready to go.
Looking at the Math….2/17= 11.8% opposed to an invasion

Back to the 17…approx 90% of us wanted out of the military. We were just waiting our time. (Personally, I was getting out ever since the day I got in, I just waited 20 years to finally get out). In summary, I never heard a Sailor or Marine say “I’m staying in for the rest of my life, I’m never getting out!” Most of us were always planning to get out as soon as possible. (I’m not saying there isn’t anyone out there that wants to stay in the rest of their lives…I’m saying I never met one).
So I’d have to agree with… “a significant number of soldiers….want out”.

So, IRT above, you CANNOT conclude that
... they didn't start out opposing the war. Yet a great number of soldiers vote, well that's interesting...I didn't know that! I thought we weren't allowed to vote!and I haven't seen any sign that they vote unanimously for the leaders who sent them over there. Again, a sign of significant change in opinion.


Sorry for the long post but one last comment...
I don’t work for the White House and I never looked into the Swift Boat thing.
As for “Vets for Freedom”…thanks spc, I’m very interested in that web site and will be looking into becoming a member.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:14 pm

BugsyR wrote:Sorry for the long post but one last comment...
I don’t work for the White House and I never looked into the Swift Boat thing.
As for “Vets for Freedom”…thanks spc, I’m very interested in that web site and will be looking into becoming a member.


Good afternoon Mike,
Figured I'd jump in here with a sincere question for you:

Do you doubt the patriotism of the many anti-Iraq War Vets (that also have websites & exist in numbers) who have been there & feel that this war should never have been waged & we need to get out of what is an Iraqi civil war?

Both sides of this emotional debate have strong beliefs & want to do what's best for this country.


Edit: I just added a "War Story" to the "DEA/IRS/US NAVY War Stories" thread & would love to hear a Navy story when you have a chance.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:58 pm

Devil5052 wrote:Good afternoon Mike,
Figured I'd jump in here with a sincere question for you:

Do you doubt the patriotism of the many anti-Iraq War Vets (that also have websites & exist in numbers) who have been there & feel that this war should never have been waged & we need to get out of what is an Iraqi civil war?

Both sides of this emotional debate have strong beliefs & want to do what's best for this country.


Howdy Richard!

No...I would never doubt their patriotism...ever!!
I don't have to respect or agree with their protest though.

I may have to explain myself and my posts...for one...I do not consider myself a very well educated man, I am very gullible, and I take a lot of things literally. Most of the time I will post if I find someone's post to be illogical to me. A couple of Stocking's posts when I read them, I see him promoting a "significant number" (majority, big number of, huge amount of...) Veterans. I just don't see it. Some of it doesn't make common sense to me but that could be because he appears to search for and post any gloom or doom possible but refuses to see the good that is being done over there. His own post with a link to an article he states "Two sides to the story" but yet I wonder if he read the entire article before he posted it. I don't see a "significant number” of Vets against the War (approx 800) in that article...I see the opposite, I see a "significant number" of Vets supporting the war (approx 11,000).

I know both sides are emotional about this debate and most have their eyes and ears closed when someone offers a counter point to their point...that I think is a huge problem in human beings...and that is why I say most humans would rather point the finger at someone else for their own failures.

If anyone thinks I wouldn't be tore up and seriously depressed if I lost a loved one in this war well then I would have to say that that individual is addicted to some really good Crack! If I lost one of my children or grandchildren in a war after they volunteered to go fight, I would be pointing the finger at myself for allowing them to volunteer not at everything and everyone else!

"that also have websites & exist in numbers" post them...I'll gladly read them...but understand they may make me :mad:

I like that little red faced guy...I finally got to use it in a comical way. :lol:
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: BugsyR On: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:00 pm

Devil5052 wrote:
Edit: I just added a "War Story" to the "DEA/IRS/US NAVY War Stories" thread & would love to hear a Navy story when you have a chance.



okay...later...when I get some time I'll tell ya about the "mail bouy"
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:12 pm

BugsyR wrote:
Devil5052 wrote:Good afternoon Mike,
Figured I'd jump in here with a sincere question for you:

Do you doubt the patriotism of the many anti-Iraq War Vets (that also have websites & exist in numbers) who have been there & feel that this war should never have been waged & we need to get out of what is an Iraqi civil war?

Both sides of this emotional debate have strong beliefs & want to do what's best for this country.


Howdy Richard!

No...I would never doubt their patriotism...ever!!
I don't have to respect or agree with their protest though.

I may have to explain myself and my posts...for one...I do not consider myself a very well educated man, I am very gullible, and I take a lot of things literally. Most of the time I will post if I find someone's post to be illogical to me. A couple of Stocking's posts when I read them, I see him promoting a "significant number" (majority, big number of, huge amount of...) Veterans. I just don't see it. Some of it doesn't make common sense to me but that could be because he appears to search for and post any gloom or doom possible but refuses to see the good that is being done over there. His own post with a link to an article he states "Two sides to the story" but yet I wonder if he read the entire article before he posted it. I don't see a "significant number” of Vets against the War (approx 800) in that article...I see the opposite, I see a "significant number" of Vets supporting the war (approx 11,000).

I know both sides are emotional about this debate and most have their eyes and ears closed when someone offers a counter point to their point...that I think is a huge problem in human beings...and that is why I say most humans would rather point the finger at someone else for their own failures.

If anyone thinks I wouldn't be tore up and seriously depressed if I lost a loved one in this war well then I would have to say that that individual is addicted to some really good Crack! If I lost one of my children or grandchildren in a war after they volunteered to go fight, I would be pointing the finger at myself for allowing them to volunteer not at everything and everyone else!

"that also have websites & exist in numbers" post them...I'll gladly read them...but understand they may make me :mad:

I like that little red faced guy...I finally got to use it in a comical way. :lol:



Here are a few websites that you requested from a very quick web search. There are literlay hundreds of them & I haven't read what's on their sites. My purpose in posting these is to show that there exist GI's & military families who are on both sides of this debate & it is just totaly bogus for anyone to claim that all or even most GI's speak with one voice on this issue, or that the anti-war vets are unpatriotic or don't exist in great numbers. We can debate these number ad infinitum but the important thing is to admitt their existance.
Therefore, it is up to all voters to independantly decide what their own opinion/beleif is, without impuning the patriotism or motives of the other side.



http://www.vaiw.org/
http://www.ivaw.org/
http://www.mfso.org/
http://veteransforcommonsense.org/

Edit: A few more veterans/military family anti Iraq War sites:

Bring Them Home Now! Bring Them Home Now! is a campaign – not an organization – and everyone can join in! We are based among military families, veterans, active duty troops, reservists and National Guard members, and their supporters.


Citizen Soldier Prepared to Challange U.S. Militarism in the New Millenium. Books, Videos, and More.


Doe vs. Bush In February of 2003, Military Families, active duty soldiers, and Members of Congress sued George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld to prevent the President from taking the nation to war absent a Congressional Declaration of War. Read the legal filings and press releases related to this case.


G.I. Rights Hotline A network of nonprofit, nongovernmental organizations who provide information to servicemembers about military discharges, grievance and complaint procedures, and other civil rights. Call the Hotline at: (800) 394-9544


Gold Star Families for Peace Gold Star Families for Peace is an organization of families who are against the war whose loved ones died as a result of the war in Iraq.


Iraq Veterans Against the War (IVAW) A group of veterans who have served since September 11th, 2001 including Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. We are committed to saving lives and ending the violence in Iraq by an immediate withdrawal of all occupying forces.


Military Families Against the War (in Great Britian) "Military Families Against the War is an organization of people directly affected by the war in Iraq. Our relatives and loved ones are members of the British Armed Services. We are opposed to the continuing involvement of UK soldiers in a war that is based on lies."


September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows September 11th Families for Peaceful Tomorrows is an organization founded by family members of those killed on September 11th who have united to turn our grief into action for peace.


Traprock Peace Center Group founded in 1979 explores nonviolence, fosters community, and works to end war. Located in Deerfield.


United for Peace & Justice United for Peace and Justice is a coalition of more than 1300 local and national groups throughout the United States who have joined together to oppose our government's policy of permanent warfare and empire-building.


Veterans Against Iraq War A coalition of American veterans who support our troops but oppose war with Iraq or any other nation that does not pose a clear and present danger to our people and nation.


Veterans for Peace Veterans For Peace is a national organization founded in 1985. It is structured around a national office in Saint Louis, MO and comprised of members across the country organized in chapters or as at-large members.


Vietnam Veterans Against the War Membership in VVAW is open to all people who want to build a veterans' movement that fights for peace and justice. Most of our members are veterans of the Vietnam era, but we welcome veterans of all eras, as well as family members and friends to our ranks.


2nd Edit: The above sites did'nt paste with their web links attached. If you go to this site

http://www.mfso.org/links.php
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.

This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
you'll get the above list with links to each site...sorry.
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Re: Why is McCain the best choice for President?

PostBy: spc On: Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:26 pm

Check out this march:
Code Pink, Iranian Activists, Muslim American Veterans. :wtf:

Some of the signs:

"Dump Bush - Hugo Chavez for Prez"

"Hands off Iran"

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/furuhashi021005.html

Not very good company.
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