LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!
- windyhill4.2
- Member
- Posts: 6072
- Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
- Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
- Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both
The draft is ok until the combustion fans are pushing more air. Even if there is an air leak in the firing chamber ,how does that equate to the draft dropping if the pv is consistently pulling the same ? Does this mean that there is an air leak between the baro & the firing chamber ? That to me would be the only possibility of not having the full draft available in the firing chamber. My boiler stack is just natural stack draft,no vacuum attached to it & normally this set up would only increase in draft strength as the fire gets hotter.With my set up the idle fire time is when to worry about losing the draft.
- SWPaDon
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- Location: Southwest Pa.
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
- Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
- Other Heating: Oil furnace
This is what the suspected problem is according to the posts several pages agowindyhill4.2 wrote:The draft is ok until the combustion fans are pushing more air. Even if there is an air leak in the firing chamber ,how does that equate to the draft dropping if the pv is consistently pulling the same ? Does this mean that there is an air leak between the baro & the firing chamber ? That to me would be the only possibility of not having the full draft available in the firing chamber. My boiler stack is just natural stack draft,no vacuum attached to it & normally this set up would only increase in draft strength as the fire gets hotter.With my set up the idle fire time is when to worry about losing the draft.
It's my understanding from reading this thread, that the AA 220 requires an overfire draft in order to operate. This furnace is losing that draft, before it reaches full burn capability.
- windyhill4.2
- Member
- Posts: 6072
- Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
- Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
- Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both
Nope, just a few amateurs trying to make sense of this turbo vacuumed stokerblrman07 wrote:Are we back on the full burn kick again?
He told me in a PM that he shut down the propane last night and the boiler held everything with no problem.
What is the issue that we are trying to solve if the boiler is currently heating everything and maintaining satisfactory temps?
What is the issue that we are trying to solve if the boiler is currently heating everything and maintaining satisfactory temps?
- windyhill4.2
- Member
- Posts: 6072
- Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
- Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
- Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both
This was our latest info.swyman wrote:This video is just to show what I'm seeing on the manometer at fire box and breech. This is as hard as I can run the stokers and still have a draft to prevent pressurizing the fire box. The reason I messed around with running one side hard as I talked with the other boiler owner on here and he is having the same issues as me but he is running a chimney. He said his seemed to run better running one side at max fire then both sides at what I think is less than max. I left one side running as low as I could to stay lit because it's a pain to re-light. Not sure if I'm right or wrong but just thought videos might help you guys see what I'm seeing.
https://youtu.be/RTABO1rKtbk
- windyhill4.2
- Member
- Posts: 6072
- Joined: Fri. Nov. 22, 2013 2:17 pm
- Location: Jonestown,Pa.17038
- Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
- Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both
And this.swyman wrote:Exactly windy, this is the best I can get it to burn without pressurizing the fire box. This unit is rated higher than yours I believe, is your fire bigger than this?windyhill4.2 wrote:My opinion,for what little it may be worth... is that you should get it firing properly at the maximum possible & then.... only after that .. then worry about consumption. BUT, my main priority in life during cold weather is to get warm and stay warm.... consumption is just the cost of being warm.If I had consumption at the top of my priority, I would keep the pipes from freezing by electric tapes & insulation,only heat 1 small room & wear insulated clothing all the time. BUT, I LIKE being warm,consumption will not be my top priority.
- swyman
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- Joined: Mon. Apr. 13, 2015 9:50 pm
- Location: Blissfield, MI
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson 260M Leisure Line AA-220 Boiler (FOR SALE)
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Pea
You are exactly right franco. I talked with the other AA-220 owner/member that has another thread on here but he has a chimney. He has the exact same issues with draft as I do. I sent him the pictures of my blower gate positions at the most open position I can have them and still have negative pressure in the fire chamber and he told me that's as far as he can open them also. I just wish I could open them a little father because if I turn one side down or off and open one side up while burning, it throws out one hell of a fire, more in line of what windy's pic of what his EFM520 throws out. If I could open both stokers up that much, this thing would be an animal. Here's a pic of the max I can open the blower gates. Seems that I should be able to open them up more but it is what it is. LL oversized the blowers so that's all it can handle.franco b wrote:
Part of the power vent output is recycled outside air introduced to the inside smoke pipe connection to help cool the unit as it passes through the wall.
Evidently the force of the combustion blowers is enough to cancel out the negative draft the power vent is providing over the fire. Wind blowing against the power vent outlet would also effect output.
Attachments
- swyman
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- Joined: Mon. Apr. 13, 2015 9:50 pm
- Location: Blissfield, MI
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson 260M Leisure Line AA-220 Boiler (FOR SALE)
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Pea
I did a test posted by one of the members that was to turn unit off with just the PV running and the numbers are the same in firebox and at the breech. I have taken this boiler completely apart and added new gaskets and sealed every single joint inside and out. I am confident to say there are no leaks, just maxed out the design I guess.SWPaDon wrote:
It's my understanding from reading this thread, that the AA 220 requires an overfire draft in order to operate. This furnace is losing that draft, before it reaches full burn capability.
- swyman
- Member
- Posts: 2355
- Joined: Mon. Apr. 13, 2015 9:50 pm
- Location: Blissfield, MI
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson 260M Leisure Line AA-220 Boiler (FOR SALE)
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Pea
Yes blrman, this boiler is capable of keeping satisfactory temps until we get down below 15* with 20+ mph winds. That's where I lose it but with moving it into the garage and eliminating that long underground loop, whatever heat loss that is taking, betting the boiler will not have an issue keeping up. My run will go from 270' to the heat exchanger down to about 60' and won't be running the Modine sucking heat.blrman07 wrote:He told me in a PM that he shut down the propane last night and the boiler held everything with no problem.
What is the issue that we are trying to solve if the boiler is currently heating everything and maintaining satisfactory temps?
SO next question is what's the best way to size a pump for the shorter run? I was going to buy a Taco 07 pump for that run but would this be the correct pump? Also, where do I put the bypass in at? Do I put it on the discharge side of the circulator to return on boiler?
- swyman
- Member
- Posts: 2355
- Joined: Mon. Apr. 13, 2015 9:50 pm
- Location: Blissfield, MI
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson 260M Leisure Line AA-220 Boiler (FOR SALE)
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Pea
Does anyone have a preferred website for a heat load calculator or do I need to hire someone to come out and do an assessment?
- McGiever
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- Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
- Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
- Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
- Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar
If you buy a new pump, you might consider a 3 speed Grundfos
Home Heat Loss Calculator
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm
BTW: Do not ASSUME your sidearm water heater gets soon satisfied and then is not pulling your water temps down for extended times while you sit and scratch your head as to...Where is all the heat going???
Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?
May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.
Home Heat Loss Calculator
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/Calculators/HeatLoss/HeatLoss.htm
BTW: Do not ASSUME your sidearm water heater gets soon satisfied and then is not pulling your water temps down for extended times while you sit and scratch your head as to...Where is all the heat going???
Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?
May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.
- swyman
- Member
- Posts: 2355
- Joined: Mon. Apr. 13, 2015 9:50 pm
- Location: Blissfield, MI
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson 260M Leisure Line AA-220 Boiler (FOR SALE)
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Pea
That is a large part of me moving the boiler inside the garage. There will be a circulator for the DHW and duct coil on one loop, then I can run a totally separate loop with circulator for the barn. Depending on heat load, I have the option of shutting the barn loop down, something I can't do now. Actually what I may do is put the furnace coil all by itself and put the DHW on the barn loop with a bypass to cancel out the barn if I need it? That way I could only cycle the furnace loop when the house calls for heat? Would that be the better way?McGiever wrote:
Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?
There is one on the boiler. one on the return at the boiler, then I have one on the supply and return just inside the house in the basement.
May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.
Thanks for the heat calculator link!
- McGiever
- Member
- Posts: 10130
- Joined: Sun. May. 02, 2010 11:26 pm
- Location: Junction of PA-OH-WV
- Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: BUCKET A DAY water heater
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 414A
- Coal Size/Type: PEA,NUT,STOVE /ANTHRACITE
- Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump and some Solar
Yes, that's one way.swyman wrote:That is a large part of me moving the boiler inside the garage. There will be a circulator for the DHW and duct coil on one loop, then I can run a totally separate loop with circulator for the barn. Depending on heat load, I have the option of shutting the barn loop down, something I can't do now. Actually what I may do is put the furnace coil all by itself and put the DHW on the barn loop with a bypass to cancel out the barn if I need it? That way I could only cycle the furnace loop when the house calls for heat? Would that be the better way?McGiever wrote:
Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?
There is one on the boiler. one on the return at the boiler, then I have one on the supply and return just inside the house in the basement.
May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.
A header and multi-zones would be a nice way too, may want to heat that swimming pool someday.
- swyman
- Member
- Posts: 2355
- Joined: Mon. Apr. 13, 2015 9:50 pm
- Location: Blissfield, MI
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman-Anderson 260M Leisure Line AA-220 Boiler (FOR SALE)
- Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Pea
Day #2 no propane and a consistent 4 bags or #160 with teens at night and mid 20's during the day and boiler is maintaining temp. I even kinda went with the majority here and got away from the max burn that I have been relentlessly harping about. I adjusted the PV down so it's not running wide open and turned down the blowers to maintain negative pressure over the fire and am pretty pleased with the results. I could still adjust the carpets a little more as I have about 1 1/2" to 2" of ash on the grates but I for once am not adjusting it every time I go out in the barn, just let it go as blrman said. I still have not turned off the Modine, 45* in garage and was going to add insulation to the top of the boiler but haven't which is yielding anywhere from 55-60* in the barn...not complaining as that is pretty cool! I just put it into another prospective, my shop is a little over 5000sqft and has a 400k fuel heater with a 2.5 gph nozzle, so the cost to heat that shop right now is about $6 and hour while it's running. Granted doesn't run all the time but is still not cheap to stay warm. So right now I'm $24 a day heating all that I am BUT if I were bulk that number would go to around $14 to have a heated garage, barn , house and DHW....I could live with that but I know I can get even better with having multiple zones that I can control. What an adventure so far and it has been far from pretty but I'm sure it's not over! Thanks for putting up with my pissed off rants and sticking with me, going to get better.....stay tuned!
May have time Sunday to do the heat load calculator IF we don't go to the Michigan Wolverines Women's basketball game??? GO BLUE!
May have time Sunday to do the heat load calculator IF we don't go to the Michigan Wolverines Women's basketball game??? GO BLUE!