LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 11:27 am

swyman wrote:
McGiever wrote:One thing seen that was given little discussion thus far was the water heater side-arm heat exchanger.
It appears to be in series with the one and only house heating zone/loop.
Propane furnace will boost house heating heat exchanger but...house heating heat exchanger receives only the leftover heat that was not already cooled by the water heater.

Guessing there may not be a loop bypass for water heating???
Number of people in a household determines the hot water heating load.
And needs factored in on total heating load calculations. :idea:

Some of the total bags/pounds of coal burnt goes towards that water heating load. ;)


There is no bypass around the hot water. How much do you think that exchanger is eating up? Correct me if I'm wrong but once the hot water heater is up to temp, seems there would be little to no heat loss there? Just me thinking, not trying to be a smart ass.

I can answer part of this, I do not and have never had a boiler. But with that said, the water in the hot water tank will stay hot for a time as long as it isn't used. Showers/baths, clothes washing, dishwashing, etc. all take a toll on the hot water tank.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace


Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 11:31 am

The draft is ok until the combustion fans are pushing more air. Even if there is an air leak in the firing chamber ,how does that equate to the draft dropping if the pv is consistently pulling the same ? Does this mean that there is an air leak between the baro & the firing chamber ? That to me would be the only possibility of not having the full draft available in the firing chamber. My boiler stack is just natural stack draft,no vacuum attached to it & normally this set up would only increase in draft strength as the fire gets hotter.With my set up the idle fire time is when to worry about losing the draft.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 11:42 am

windyhill4.2 wrote:The draft is ok until the combustion fans are pushing more air. Even if there is an air leak in the firing chamber ,how does that equate to the draft dropping if the pv is consistently pulling the same ? Does this mean that there is an air leak between the baro & the firing chamber ? That to me would be the only possibility of not having the full draft available in the firing chamber. My boiler stack is just natural stack draft,no vacuum attached to it & normally this set up would only increase in draft strength as the fire gets hotter.With my set up the idle fire time is when to worry about losing the draft.

This is what the suspected problem is according to the posts several pages ago

It's my understanding from reading this thread, that the AA 220 requires an overfire draft in order to operate. This furnace is losing that draft, before it reaches full burn capability.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: blrman07 On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 11:47 am

Are we back on the full burn kick again?
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 11:52 am

blrman07 wrote:Are we back on the full burn kick again?

Nope, just a few amateurs trying to make sense of this turbo vacuumed stoker :)
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: blrman07 On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 11:57 am

He told me in a PM that he shut down the propane last night and the boiler held everything with no problem.

What is the issue that we are trying to solve if the boiler is currently heating everything and maintaining satisfactory temps?
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 12:57 pm

swyman wrote:This video is just to show what I'm seeing on the manometer at fire box and breech. This is as hard as I can run the stokers and still have a draft to prevent pressurizing the fire box. The reason I messed around with running one side hard as I talked with the other boiler owner on here and he is having the same issues as me but he is running a chimney. He said his seemed to run better running one side at max fire then both sides at what I think is less than max. I left one side running as low as I could to stay lit because it's a pain to re-light. Not sure if I'm right or wrong but just thought videos might help you guys see what I'm seeing.

https://youtu.be/RTABO1rKtbk

This was our latest info.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 12:57 pm

swyman wrote:
windyhill4.2 wrote:My opinion,for what little it may be worth... is that you should get it firing properly at the maximum possible & then.... only after that .. then worry about consumption. BUT, my main priority in life during cold weather is to get warm and stay warm.... consumption is just the cost of being warm.If I had consumption at the top of my priority, I would keep the pipes from freezing by electric tapes & insulation,only heat 1 small room & wear insulated clothing all the time. BUT, I LIKE being warm,consumption will not be my top priority. :)


Exactly windy, this is the best I can get it to burn without pressurizing the fire box. This unit is rated higher than yours I believe, is your fire bigger than this?

And this.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both


Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 4:39 pm

franco b wrote:
Part of the power vent output is recycled outside air introduced to the inside smoke pipe connection to help cool the unit as it passes through the wall.

Evidently the force of the combustion blowers is enough to cancel out the negative draft the power vent is providing over the fire. Wind blowing against the power vent outlet would also effect output.


You are exactly right franco. I talked with the other AA-220 owner/member that has another thread on here but he has a chimney. He has the exact same issues with draft as I do. I sent him the pictures of my blower gate positions at the most open position I can have them and still have negative pressure in the fire chamber and he told me that's as far as he can open them also. I just wish I could open them a little father because if I turn one side down or off and open one side up while burning, it throws out one hell of a fire, more in line of what windy's pic of what his EFM520 throws out. If I could open both stokers up that much, this thing would be an animal. Here's a pic of the max I can open the blower gates. Seems that I should be able to open them up more but it is what it is. LL oversized the blowers so that's all it can handle.
Attachments
20151222_141102_resized.jpg
(83.04 KiB) Viewed 6 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]71321[/nepathumb]
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 4:45 pm

SWPaDon wrote:
It's my understanding from reading this thread, that the AA 220 requires an overfire draft in order to operate. This furnace is losing that draft, before it reaches full burn capability.


I did a test posted by one of the members that was to turn unit off with just the PV running and the numbers are the same in firebox and at the breech. I have taken this boiler completely apart and added new gaskets and sealed every single joint inside and out. I am confident to say there are no leaks, just maxed out the design I guess.
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 4:55 pm

blrman07 wrote:He told me in a PM that he shut down the propane last night and the boiler held everything with no problem.

What is the issue that we are trying to solve if the boiler is currently heating everything and maintaining satisfactory temps?


Yes blrman, this boiler is capable of keeping satisfactory temps until we get down below 15* with 20+ mph winds. That's where I lose it but with moving it into the garage and eliminating that long underground loop, whatever heat loss that is taking, betting the boiler will not have an issue keeping up. My run will go from 270' to the heat exchanger down to about 60' and won't be running the Modine sucking heat.
SO next question is what's the best way to size a pump for the shorter run? I was going to buy a Taco 07 pump for that run but would this be the correct pump? Also, where do I put the bypass in at? Do I put it on the discharge side of the circulator to return on boiler?
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 5:11 pm

Does anyone have a preferred website for a heat load calculator or do I need to hire someone to come out and do an assessment?
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 5:45 pm

If you buy a new pump, you might consider a 3 speed Grundfos

Home Heat Loss Calculator
http://www.builditsolar.com/References/ ... atLoss.htm

BTW: Do not ASSUME your sidearm water heater gets soon satisfied and then is not pulling your water temps down for extended times while you sit and scratch your head as to...Where is all the heat going??? :mad:

Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?

May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.:idea:
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 6:21 pm

McGiever wrote:
Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?

There is one on the boiler. one on the return at the boiler, then I have one on the supply and return just inside the house in the basement.

May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.:idea:


That is a large part of me moving the boiler inside the garage. There will be a circulator for the DHW and duct coil on one loop, then I can run a totally separate loop with circulator for the barn. Depending on heat load, I have the option of shutting the barn loop down, something I can't do now. Actually what I may do is put the furnace coil all by itself and put the DHW on the barn loop with a bypass to cancel out the barn if I need it? That way I could only cycle the furnace loop when the house calls for heat? Would that be the better way?

Thanks for the heat calculator link!
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu. Jan. 21, 2016 6:26 pm

swyman wrote:
McGiever wrote:
Where all do you have water temp gauges installed to see various temps as the water makes it's way through all the in-line devices?

There is one on the boiler. one on the return at the boiler, then I have one on the supply and return just inside the house in the basement.

May want to think about a different piping arrangement than every thing being in series in one huge loop.
Let each device take their turn instead of everything or nothing being on.:idea:


That is a large part of me moving the boiler inside the garage. There will be a circulator for the DHW and duct coil on one loop, then I can run a totally separate loop with circulator for the barn. Depending on heat load, I have the option of shutting the barn loop down, something I can't do now. Actually what I may do is put the furnace coil all by itself and put the DHW on the barn loop with a bypass to cancel out the barn if I need it? That way I could only cycle the furnace loop when the house calls for heat? Would that be the better way?


Yes, that's one way.

A header and multi-zones would be a nice way too, may want to heat that swimming pool someday. ;)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek