LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:50 am

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:Most likely you have reached "critical mass" with your system and heat loads.

Coal stokers don't like "recovery" heating, they like "steady" heating. Once you've gotten enough heat into your zones that some are satisfied and don't need to such out every last BTU of the water that flows within 10 feet of it like a giant black hole...then BTUs can get to the next section and some might even make it back to the boiler, LOL.

That is one main advantage of proper zoning. Not only can you deliver Where and When you deliver BTUs to the exact place that is needed at any given time, you can control HOW MUCH heat (BTUs) go to a zone at any given time.

For example, say a given load is on a zone and needs to be heated by 20*. Well, you can either throw 'x' number of BTUs at it in an hour, or '1/2 x' over 2 hrs. Either way works, but what happens when your boiler can only make '3x' and you have 4 zones all calling for 'x'?

You are calling for X times 4 zones = 4x load, but the boiler can only make 3x, so each zone can LOSE heat and start increasing from X to 'X+1' then 'X+2', etc. You can see how the problem starts to snowball pretty rapidly over a few hours.

But if you have zones, they can all get their 1/2x max when all zones are calling for heat, then when the first (branch off the supply loop) is satisfied, the others can get 3/4X, then when the next is satisfied, the last gets a full X. It may only take 1/3x to maintain the zone after it us up to temp.

***

Now the above is NOT a perfect example. In reality the upstream zones usually get higher temp water, but the closely spaced tees like I've used help balance and limit excessive BTU draws per zone. That helps maintain a higher primary loop and boiler temp, which provides more heat to the zones and is less stress on the boiler.

But...zone "can" increase the recovery time of a zone. Hence the "steady heat" preference of a coal boiler. You don't have to heat the entire boiler and loop full of water before you can provide heat to the zones. Therefore, you can provide smaller amounts of heat over longer periods of time, which can result in a much lower average load- especially since "more zones" means even more of a chance of staggering the demand.

This is why many marginal capacity systems tend to spiral downward under extreme loads- like last year's multiple days of -30's. In a zoned system, you could "cheat" by prioritizing which zone needed heat "now", temporarily turn off the other zones, and crank up the aquastat on the boiler. Once that zone was satisfied, move to turn on the next one, and so on.

Eventually, that really cold scenario would result in lower zone max temps and end up in the same boat, but in most cases it can buy us up to a week. Most of those extreme temps don't last longer than that- or we can supplement with propane or whatever. Many (most?) of us have backup heat sources of propane, oil, wood, etc that can be called upon in those uncommon and extreme times.

Glad you are FINALLY getting some satisfactory HEAT out of your system! Hope the info I've posted is helpful for your next evolution.


This makes perfect sense and the lack of multiple zones is what was killing me at first. I can't figure out why it is working so well now but I'm just going to keep it the way it as and get working on other projects!!!! Finally I am free from this! (pic below)
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swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

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Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:41 am

swyman wrote:
blrman07 wrote:
Uhhhhh if it's working my advise is leave it alone.

.


That's exactly what I'm doing but I have to admit it's kinda boring! Only thing I have done the last 3 days now is dump the ash in the driveway every morning and top off the hopper. I'll have to tear it apart and clean it in about a week or two. Been doing a full cleanup every skid of coal as per instruction manual. I bought some 1 1/2" wire tube cleaners so I will be able to do a better job on those fire tubes!




You don't need to go too crazy cleaning it. Again don't overthink it You probably will not have to take the top off that often. Mostly make sure your horizontal runs of pipe are clear. Make sure the outlet area of the base is clear through the sliding door. You will develop a schedule and find you do not have to do it as often as recommended. That is a starting point and worst case very high ash coal. If you are shutting it down in the summer then clean it really good and treat it. Especially if it is in a very damp area such as where you have it.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: titleist1 On: Sun Jan 24, 2016 11:44 am

swyman wrote:That's exactly what I'm doing but I have to admit it's kinda boring! Only thing I have done the last 3 days now is dump the ash in the driveway every morning and top off the hopper.


Time for a new hobby other than wood gathering! Coal isn't as cheap as free wood, but the free time you get is priceless.

Whatever you do....don't start rehabbing old coal boilers.....its a slippery slope....just ask StokerDon!! :P
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: blrman07 On: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:38 pm

StokerDon can be found in his garage amidst various stoker parts talking to himself..." I wonder if this will fit in here?" "Sure it will if I just file this, cut this, twist that and it should work."

Then yanks out the burner and sets it up just outside his garage and lites it off just to watch it burn......
There is no cure.....

And I thought I had it bad ;)
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 2:40 am

Pinch me.....7 days with nothing to report but a working boiler! Finally finished the barn and I might have a slight problem but it is one that is easy to correct... it was at 190* when I left for work! Slightly alarmed as it goes into idle fire at 185* but thanks to a slight blunder on my part on Christmas Eve and strong advice from you guys I have a high limit shut off (set at 215*). I haven't touched any settings in a couple weeks so I decided to see what it does over the night. I guess I could have turned it down and I will in the morning but wanted to see what transpires through the night. Have to admit I am bored now that the boiler is working and the barn is finished other than paint and some electrical outlet runs. I did however come up with a good plan for my ashes, I left my Bobcat bucket just outside the building and am dumping my ash into that.... no more dust or carrying the pan outside into the driveway to dump. Temps are very warm here though, seen a couple guys out riding their Harley's yesterday! As of tomorrow I will be down to my last 2 #2400 skids which should get me well into March so all in all the 6 ton I bought for the season is going to be about right after all. Granted this has been fairly mild but I think worst case 8 ton would get me through a winter without moving the unit in the basement. I am planning a 24'x20' living room addition, I think when I decide to pull the trigger I will make sure it has a basement and attach it to my current basement but set the new one up strictly for coal burning. I could build a nice coal bin and ash removal system plus the area the unit would be located is right in the center of everything down stairs. I think that would be ideal.

Good day gentlemen!
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:01 am

:punk: A boring boiler is good!
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: blrman07 On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:13 am

Great to hear. Glad you stuck in there. Put in the coal, take out the ashes. That's what coal burning is supposed to be like. No wood to cut, no wood to haul, no wood to split, no wood to stack, no wood to carry, no wood to chuck in a furnace.

If you get too bored, you could still do that and sell the wood and buy coal with it :D
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:40 am

It's about time ! :P Now you can get started on that super truck project ,or some other project ,or relax. :)
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Visit Leisure Line

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:44 am

It's great to hear you have heat and the only concern is adding coal and removing ash. :clap: :dancing:
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:32 am

blrman07 wrote:
If you get too bored, you could still do that and sell the wood and buy coal with it :D


HAha! That would be a great idea however I am kind of enjoying these freedoms......so much so the log splitter is on craigslist. Washing my hands of all that extra work! I feel confident about this system now knowing it will do the job even though it's probably in the worst place I could have put it but for now the heck with it!
Thank you all for the help! Still can't quite put my finger on what solved my issues, my best guess is not having the boiler exposed to outside temps? When we had those cold spells before my garage was done the top plate would read 80* on the IR gun, now it's around 140*! Breech exhaust temps are around 220* now while it's running, I think that's pretty good?
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 9:43 am

swyman wrote: Still can't quite put my finger on what solved my issues,


:whistle: Maybe when you quit messing with the adjustments ? :P Then the boiler could do it's job. :flex: :box:

Just kidding !

Partially :)

Could be a part of the what.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:58 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:
:whistle: Maybe when you quit messing with the adjustments ? :P Then the boiler could do it's job. :flex: :box:

Just kidding !

Partially :)

Could be a part of the what.


You're probably right windy, I did however just turn the feed and blowers down because it would literally run in high fire for about 5 minutes if that and go into idle fire. Like you all said that coal likes a slow steady burn so I adjusted for that as best I could while keeping both stokers running. Now it's going about 15-20 minutes at current outdoor temps but the weather will be fluctuating 20-30* the next week or so.
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: Flyer5 On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:04 pm

swyman wrote:
windyhill4.2 wrote:
:whistle: Maybe when you quit messing with the adjustments ? :P Then the boiler could do it's job. :flex: :box:

Just kidding !

Partially :)

Could be a part of the what.


You're probably right windy, I did however just turn the feed and blowers down because it would literally run in high fire for about 5 minutes if that and go into idle fire. Like you all said that coal likes a slow steady burn so I adjusted for that as best I could while keeping both stokers running. Now it's going about 15-20 minutes at current outdoor temps but the weather will be fluctuating 20-30* the next week or so.


Don't do that. Coal does not care about short cycling. Set it for max efficiency and leave it.
Flyer5
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Pioneer

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:36 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:
swyman wrote: Still can't quite put my finger on what solved my issues,


:whistle: Maybe when you quit messing with the adjustments ? :P Then the boiler could do it's job. :flex: :box:

Just kidding !

Partially :)

Could be a part of the what.


So I was right !!!!!!! Now look what you have done,

AGAIN!!!!

You need a project to work on !!!!
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: LL AA-220 Max Draft Burn With Power Vent Please Help!

PostBy: swyman On: Tue Feb 02, 2016 12:48 am

Right on Dave, I will set it back up in the morning. Thanks for the clarification
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

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