Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

Well Bugsy I didn't say its good thing, note the "fiasco". One death a month there is too many but the alternative of just packing up and leaving isn't an alternative IMO. In hindsight obviously a bad choice to be there in the first place however as I said before in another thread it would be foolish to leave now, I'd have the same thoughts even if the surge wasn't working.

Richard S. wrote:Well Bugsy I didn't say its good thing, note the "fiasco". One death a month there is too many but the alternative of just packing up and leaving isn't an alternative IMO. In hindsight obviously a bad choice to be there in the first place however as I said before in another thread it would be foolish to leave now, I'd have the same thoughts even if the surge wasn't working.

Not accusing you of saying it's a good thing...I agree with you 100% with "One death a month there is too many".
I had a discussion with a young Navy LTjg while we turned circles south of the Gulf of Oman. He was hungry for war, I was getting tired of war, and tired of being over there. This was May - June time frame of '02(we first got there in Feb...4-5 months of circles gets tiring). He was running his mouth about being in Iraq before we get home and then we'll be in Iran...I basically told him to keep it to himself because I was more concerned about our country keeping focus on Afghanistan and OBL. He was wrong though...we didn't make it to Iraq before we got home...lucky for me, we got home in August then I caught another ride over for Iraq in January of 03 (that gave me some time to be with the wife and kids in between). Didn't want to go back...had to go back. Bush Administration wanted us there....Congress approved to go in. I was not happy...much rather would have been off the coast of Pakistan trying to complete that job. But, as I read through all these "political" posts...a lot of fingers point at Bush and Cheney...no one points their fingers at...Congress. I've heard it and said it...Congress sent us to war with Iraq and they/we were lead by Bush and Cheney.

I quoted you because of all the negativity that jumps from one thread to another in here. The part I edited in red is what I was referring to. That is a "positive" if you consider everything else in this thread.

Another quote from that same movie...same actor..."What's with all the negative waves? You're really bringing me down!" I could have used that quote for some of the other posts but this thread seems to be just as hostile as some of the others and I truly don't want to offend or have someone take offense to it. Just an attempt to lighten the spirits.

BugsyR wrote:[ But, as I read through all these "political" posts...a lot of fingers point at Bush and Cheney...no one points their fingers at...Congress. I've heard it and said it...Congress sent us to war with Iraq and they/we were lead by Bush and Cheney.

I quoted you because of all the negativity that jumps from one thread to another in here. The part I edited in red is what I was referring to. That is a "positive" if you consider everything else in this thread.

Another quote from that same movie...same actor..."What's with all the negative waves? You're really bringing me down!" I could have used that quote for some of the other posts but this thread seems to be just as hostile as some of the others and I truly don't want to offend or have someone take offense to it. Just an attempt to lighten the spirits.

Took a nap & I'm a little calmer than I was this morning. I guess I am to blame for many of the "negative waves" on some of these threads but that is only because I am passionate in my beliefs, right or wrong and I feel that it does no good for anyone to pretend things aren't happening in the world or to not discuss them....... passionately in an election year. This will be the last time for four years that we have any real effect on who will sit at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave so now is the time to air it all!
I have great respect for you bugsy, for your service to this country & feel that it does bolster your opinions/ideas since you have "been there!" I strongly feel that we all have a moral obligation to do what little we each can do to repay our country for the many blessings that we take for granted every day.
I forget which candidate expressed it (I think it was Obama) but his/her feeling was that we should earn college financial assistance by "repaying" for it with work for our country. Whether military, Peace Corps, law enforcement, medical assistance or whatever....I feel that some kind of compulsary service would be a good thing, for both the country & the individual who performs it.
I was too harsh towards spc as I guess his "paying taxes" answer (as all he feels is required to be a good citizen) just struck a nerve with me.
Anyway, my intention is not to bring anyone down & I feel that I partcipate in many "Fun" threads & contribute to many of the coal related posts as well. I just really am offended by this Iraq situation which was a mistake from the begining & yet noone is really being held accountable for.
Nuff said!

If Sadam was still in power wouldn't he have to be dealt with at some point? Should we have depended on the UN to secure the region? Would there be even more American casualties in a future war with Iraq? An Iraq with Sadam's two sons in power must have been a frightening thought.
We will never know if going to war in 2003 was the right time. Would any time be the right time?
After 9/11 I can see how this administration would have seen Iraq as a bigger threat, Could Iraq join forces with al qaeda? They helped jihadist in the past. People say they did not like each other but look what Iran did, they let Iraq hide planes in their country during the 1st gulf war, after a 6 year war with them.
If it means killing more Americans they would all join hands. Very tough decisions.

spc wrote:If Sadam was still in power wouldn't he have to be dealt with at some point? Should we have depended on the UN to secure the region? Would there be even more American casualties in a future war with Iraq? An Iraq with Sadam's two sons in power must have been a frightening thought.
We will never know if going to war in 2003 was the right time. Would any time be the right time?
After 9/11 I can see how this administration would have seen Iraq as a bigger threat, Could Iraq join forces with al qaeda? They helped jihadist in the past. People say they did not like each other but look what Iran did, they let Iraq hide planes in their country during the 1st gulf war, after a 6 year war with them.
If it means killing more Americans they would all join hands. Very tough decisions.

Just so much Karl Rove, White House drivel. Saddam never was any threat to the US & almost everyone now agrees that starting the war in Iraq was a huge mistake. GW Bush is just hoping he can run out the clock so that his mess will be cleaned up by the next President. (in other words, he's taking the coward's way out....as usual!)

Devil5052 wrote:

spc wrote:If Sadam was still in power wouldn't he have to be dealt with at some point? Should we have depended on the UN to secure the region? Would there be even more American casualties in a future war with Iraq? An Iraq with Sadam's two sons in power must have been a frightening thought.
We will never know if going to war in 2003 was the right time. Would any time be the right time?
After 9/11 I can see how this administration would have seen Iraq as a bigger threat, Could Iraq join forces with al qaeda? They helped jihadist in the past. People say they did not like each other but look what Iran did, they let Iraq hide planes in their country during the 1st gulf war, after a 6 year war with them.
If it means killing more Americans they would all join hands. Very tough decisions.

Just so much Karl Rove, White House drivel. Saddam never was any threat to the US & almost everyone now agrees that starting the war in Iraq was a huge mistake. GW Bush is just hoping he can run out the clock so that his mess will be cleaned up by the next President. (in other words, he's taking the coward's way out....as usual!)

You know what is cowardly, name calling someone who you know isn't listening & is unable to defend themselves. I guess you think being part of an Administration isn't serving your country? I got to go Karl is calling.

[quote="spc"You know what is cowardly, name calling someone who you know isn't listening & is unable to defend themselves. I guess you think being part of an Administration isn't serving your country? I got to go Karl is calling. [/quote]

This is a public forum & how do you know that GW doesn't read this forum? (I happen to know, for a fact that he loves anthracite coal & reads this forum regularly) Your argument is the most rediculous thing I have read in a long while! Let me get this straight........The most powerful man in the free world, who can snap his fingers & have 100 newsmen appear instantly.....is somehow "Unable toi defend himself" against the views of a 61 year old private citzen on a very small anthracite coal forum?? Tell you what, you call him & get him to make sure her reads my posts & .....I Promise to say these things directly to him!
Say hello to chubby little Karl for me, & be sure to tell him that I say he is a fat little coward & that if he's man enough to want to pursue it....I'm available 24/7.

Devil5052 wrote:Say hello to chubby little Karl for me, & be sure to tell him that I say he is a fat little coward & that if he's man enough to want to pursue it....I'm available 24/7.

Boy you dems are sore losers. Gotta love the Architect.

Devil5052 wrote:I forget which candidate expressed it (I think it was Obama) but his/her feeling was that we should earn college financial assistance by "repaying" for it with work for our country. Whether military, Peace Corps, law enforcement, medical assistance or whatever....I feel that some kind of compulsary service would be a good thing, for both the country & the individual who performs it.

It was Obama that said something along those lines, I think maybe in his speech on the last big primary night. However, he was not talking about compulsory service, not exactly. His idea was to make a whole bunch of money available for scholarships and have those who accept such a scholarship "repay" through a year or two of service. Notably absent from the list he mentioned was military service. He also didn't indicate he was interested in increasing GI bill funds. He was speaking of peace corps, americorps, state dept foreign service, and also a more generic "community service" which I suppose could mean any number of things on a local level.

I don't know if that was the only level of compulsory service you are speaking of, or if you're advocating something more like the Israeli system where everyone has to put in a couple years of military service (we could do without the full citizenry reserve status they have, at least until Canada and/or Mexico start lobbing in rockets).

I strongly feel that we all have a moral obligation to do what little we each can do to repay our country for the many blessings that we take for granted every day.

I disagree that part of that moral obligation is to serve in the military or police or peace corps. While these are great choices one can make, and making that choice certainly does say something about the person making it, it is wrong to condemn those who don't make that choice. They aren't inherently less valuable or less patriotic or less morally righteous in a civic duty sense. And they shouldn't inherently be given less credence in the national discussion or the actual decision making process when it comes to war, peace, budget, or national policy in general.

That said, I agree it takes more than simply paying taxes and leading a legal life to be a good citizen. It takes engaging in the debates of the day, being informed, voting, paying attention to the people, the country, and the world around us. Most importantly, it takes living and doing for a purpose beyond ourselves.

For some that means military, police, fireman, or civic service. For others that means participation in church or donating to charities. It can take the form of being an employer or working for the good of the employer, customer, or one's family instead of just for the paycheck. Raising a good kid or two is time well spent, too.

Being a good citizen and fulfilling one's moral obligation as a citizen isn't about what we do so much as why we do.

Lastly, compulsory service doesn't make one a more moral anything anymore than paying compulsory taxes does. It is exactly the non-compulsory choices we make in our lives that define our character and fulfill or not our moral obligations as citizens and people.

pvolcko wrote:

I don't know if that was the only level of compulsory service you are speaking of, or if you're advocating something more like the Israeli system where everyone has to put in a couple years of military service (we could do without the full citizenry reserve status they have, at least until Canada and/or Mexico start lobbing in rockets). While I don't think compulsory service would be such a bad idea, I'm thinking more of a system like Obama advocates that at least a portion of your college loan would be forgiven/repaid by a few years of some type of service to your country. (military,medical,teaching,etc)

I strongly feel that we all have a moral obligation to do what little we each can do to repay our country for the many blessings that we take for granted every day.

I disagree that part of that moral obligation is to serve in the military or police or peace corps. While these are great choices one can make, and making that choice certainly does say something about the person making it, it is wrong to condemn those who don't make that choice. I don't condemn those people but have strong feelings that if, for no good reason you have chosen to avoid any military service on your own, it is the height of hypocrisy to strongly advocate that "others" rush in to fight your battles. (whether volunteers or not Mr. Cheney)They aren't inherently less valuable or less patriotic or less morally righteous in a civic duty sense. But they have less of a right to be a chicken-hawk. And they shouldn't inherently be given less credence in the national discussion or the actual decision making process when it comes to war, peace, budget, or national policy in general. I disagree, when it comes to war. Again, my analogy is how much credence should this forum give to someone who has a heated debate (no pun intended)with others here over the best way to shake down a coal stove when that person has never come closer to one than seeing pictures in a coal stove brochure?...Do they have the right to express their opinion?......Of course. Should anyone here pay the slightest attention to their opinions?.....NO!
That said, I agree it takes more than simply paying taxes and leading a legal life to be a good citizen. It takes engaging in the debates of the day, being informed, voting, paying attention to the people, the country, and the world around us. Most importantly, it takes living and doing for a purpose beyond ourselves.

For some that means military, police, fireman, or civic service. For others that means participation in church or donating to charities. It can take the form of being an employer or working for the good of the employer, customer, or one's family instead of just for the paycheck. Raising a good kid or two is time well spent, too.

Being a good citizen and fulfilling one's moral obligation as a citizen isn't about what we do so much as why we do.

Lastly, compulsory service doesn't make one a more moral anything anymore than paying compulsory taxes does. It is exactly the non-compulsory choices we make in our lives that define our character and fulfill or not our moral obligations as citizens and people.

Totaly agreed other than my opinion that the person who will not give of themselves for a moment to provide any service back to this country, deserves little credence in advocating that others do the necessary work that he himself wont do. (Like fighting a war) It's like when Mitt Romney,strongly advocating the war in Iraq, was asked if any of his sons had performed military service & he (sheepishly) tried to convince us that their passing out his election stickers was their service to the country!..That's what I call a hypocrit who should just keep his mouth shut & has no right to push our sons & daughters towards a war that his family would never be withing 1000 miles of!

Today's headlines:


U.S. forces drawn deeper into Iraq crackdown By Peter Graff
51 minutes ago



BAGHDAD (Reuters) - U.S. forces were drawn deeper into Iraq's four day-old crackdown on Shi'ite militants on Friday, launching air strikes in Basra for the first time and battling militants in Baghdad.



Full story here: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080328/ts_nm/iraq_dc_60

What is happening in Basra is the BHO plan for Iraq. The Brits pulled out, fighting started, and eventually you have to go back in to clean up the mess.

spc wrote:What is happening in Basra is the BHO plan for Iraq. The Brits pulled out, fighting started, and eventually you have to go back in to clean up the mess.

Why.....Iraq is a peaceful place that you could comfortably walk down the streets & go to the markets in.......Isn't it?
That's what our President is trying to convince us about......All that left wing media war crap is just the commie-pinko's trying to hide the real story............That a schoolroom in Bagdad was recently repainted (green I think), that a mortar round induced pothole in the Green Zone was recently filled in......You know....the important stories that our "defeatist media" is failing to cover! Don't forget how "Romantic" being a soldier at war is......according to Mr. Bush.......Haven't you seen any of John Wayne's movies???

spc wrote:What is happening in Basra is the BHO plan for Iraq. The Brits pulled out, fighting started, and eventually you have to go back in to clean up the mess.

So what you are really saying is that whenever we leave, that the killings will just increase again....Therefore.....McCain is right....We will need to be there for another 100 years! Well, I'm all for that!! (after all, I just have to sit safely & quietly at my computer & make sure I continue to pay my taxes like a good citizen......I'll let someone else's kids get their heads blown off in Iraq!.....Rah Rah!!)

Devil5052 wrote:

spc wrote:What is happening in Basra is the BHO plan for Iraq. The Brits pulled out, fighting started, and eventually you have to go back in to clean up the mess.

Why.....Iraq is a peaceful place that you could comfortably walk down the streets & go to the markets in.......Isn't it?
That's what our President is trying to convince us about......All that left wing media war crap is just the commie-pinko's trying to hide the real story............That a schoolroom in Bagdad was recently repainted (green I think), that a mortar round induced pothole in the Green Zone was recently filled in......You know....the important stories that our "defeatist media" is failing to cover! Don't forget how "Romantic" being a soldier at war is......according to Mr. Bush.......Haven't you seen any of John Wayne's movies???

You just can't wait for us to fail in Iraq can you. I think the MSM has got the bad news from Iraq covered, you really don't have to post it here. Care to comment on my previous post about your man’s (BHO) war plan, seems to be happening in Basra.