Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri May 30, 2008 9:31 am

BugsyR wrote:Senators and Representatives swear to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, both foreign and domestic". If it can be clearly demonstrated that Bush violated the Constitution then they are obligated to follow the impeachment process. If they obstruct the process to protect their party then they can be charged with violating their oath.


I think you will find that most Democrats are angry with Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid for just that.......Violating their sworn oath!
Problem is we are talking about political decisions here Mike. There is no law or Constitutional obligation to "require" impeachment....It is merely there as a possible remedy. Actually going ahead with the impeachment process is a "political" decision, based more on the will & the numerical strength of the party bringing articles of impeachment in the House Judiciary Committee.
In this case, I think the Democrats have misread the anger of the public towards GW & have decided that another impeachment proceeding would have soured the public just as the partisan impeachment of Bill Clinton did. They are wrong & now it is obviously too late to start.
These are obviously just my opinions Mike, but are shared by a good many experts & voters in this country.
Don't ever allow yourself to be "shocked" by the cowardice of our Congress in violating their oath....They do it every day!


Edit: When you said this: "the way I truly see it is if one Democrat, Libertarian, Constitutionist, Reformist, Independent, etc, took the reins of the band wagon, and successfully came up with something that clearly demonstarates that Bush violated the Constitution, and started the impeachment process, and fights for that impeachment, and is successful...that individual would probably be able to write his/her own ticket into ANY political office."

Robert Wexler, (Florida's 19th district Congressman) is your man!

http://wexler.house.gov/apps/list/speech/fl19_wexler/morenews/110607_frontpageimpeachment.shtml
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


He's been trying to force impeachment (starting with Cheney) against this administration for a while. (joined by at least 85 other Congressmen voting to keep impeachment going.....Still not enough)
Last edited by Devil505 on Fri May 30, 2008 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: BugsyR On: Fri May 30, 2008 10:15 am


http://kucinich.house.gov/spotlightissues/documents.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


I'm thinking Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (Ohio's 10th) is the man when it comes to this subject.
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri May 30, 2008 10:17 am

BugsyR wrote:
http://kucinich.house.gov/spotlightissues/documents.htm
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.


I'm thinking Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (Ohio's 10th) is the man when it comes to this subject.



You are quite right!! I was just about to add him...Thanks!
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: BugsyR On: Fri May 30, 2008 10:32 am

Devil5052 wrote: You are quite right!! I was just about to add him...Thanks!


Aye...
Very interesting stuff but it would be even more interesting if they would have more support and would be stomping and screaming.

You and Stocking should be knocking down their doors and lighting coal fires under their buttocks :)
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri May 30, 2008 11:01 am

BugsyR wrote:You and Stocking should be knocking down their doors and lighting coal fires under their buttocks :)



I think all Americans should look around at the current state of the economy & the Middle East & all be lighting fires!!
(I think there will be a huge bonfire come November.......... with allot of political "deadwood" going up in flames)
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri May 30, 2008 11:33 am

BugsyR wrote:
stockingfull wrote: The "Bush Doctrine" is plainly illegal; ...


Once again as in so many past posts...here is a President being accused of doing crime...by a lawyer...and yet Congress is filled with lawyers...and none of them can find a single crime to START an impeachment! Why are we so smart here in this forum and we have a bunch of bumbling baboons sitting on Capitol Hill? I still say IF he committed such a huge crime WHY aren't the CLINTONs at least screaming their heads off to get GW impeached? Hmmm...maybe it's because he didn't commit any crimes that todays Congress can nab him on? Here is supposedly one of the dumbest Presidents we have had but yet NO ONE is smart enough to start an impeachment...go figure!


This one's easy. It wasn't at all that they couldn't figure out grounds for impeachment. Everybody knows that there were and are far more substantive grounds for impeachment than there ever were for the joke impeachment of Billy C. over a hum-job.

So here are the Top Four reasons why Dumbya wasn't impeached:
4. Pelosi and the new leadership knew that perpetuating the cycle of scorched earth by making impeachment just another arrow in the political quiver would not only be bad politics but the repeated paralysis of impeachments could threaten our system of government in the long run;
3. As the Republicans discovered in 1998-9, starting an impeachment halfway through a President's second term just doesn't gain you much; by the time you get him out, he nearly would have been out anyway;
2. As the Republicans found out in the 1998 mid-terms, the electorate doesn't like "political impeachments" of Presidents and will pay the "persecuting party" back with losses in elections they could have won;
and the Number 1 reason Bush wasn't impeached:
1. Dick Cheney would have become Prez. :fear:
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri May 30, 2008 12:41 pm

stockingfull wrote:nd the Number 1 reason Bush wasn't impeached:
1. Dick Cheney would have become Prez. :fear:


Now there is where the only smart thing the Dems have done would have come into play.........If you look at most of the impeachment attempts, they were trying to take down Cheney first....for just that reason! (I guess they were afraid he might whip out his shotgun again!! :lol: )
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri May 30, 2008 12:52 pm

Devil5052 wrote:
stockingfull wrote:nd the Number 1 reason Bush wasn't impeached:
1. Dick Cheney would have become Prez. :fear:


Now there is where the only smart thing the Dems have done would have come into play.........If you look at most of the impeachment attempts, they were trying to take down Cheney first....for just that reason! (I guess they were afraid he might whip out his shotgun again!! :lol: )


True, but then you get back to reasons 4, 3 and 2, but particularly 3. Too much damage, not enough time, long shot of getting both done, galvanize the other party...

Bottom line: everybody now knows the Clinton impeachment was hypocritical and politically stupid. That Pelosi had the fortitude to squelch the screams for vengeance in the Democratic party just shows how well-developed her political skill set is and how stateswomanlike she has turned out to be as Speaker. Because of her leadership, there won't be another presidential impeachment in our lifetimes. And that's probably a good thing.
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: BugsyR On: Fri May 30, 2008 12:53 pm

stockingfull wrote:
So here are the Top Four reasons why Dumbya wasn't impeached:
4. Pelosi and the new leadership knew that perpetuating the cycle of scorched earth by making impeachment just another arrow in the political quiver would not only be bad politics but the repeated paralysis of impeachments could threaten our system of government in the long run;
3. As the Republicans discovered in 1998-9, starting an impeachment halfway through a President's second term just doesn't gain you much; by the time you get him out, he nearly would have been out anyway;
2. As the Republicans found out in the 1998 mid-terms, the electorate doesn't like "political impeachments" of Presidents and will pay the "persecuting party" back with losses in elections they could have won;
and the Number 1 reason Bush wasn't impeached:
1. Dick Cheney would have become Prez. :fear:


#4 Horse manure...if the public keeps voting in what some say are "criminals" or "liars" our Congress is there to make sure the President stays in check. Once again...IF Bush is a criminal...impeach him and Cheney
#3 Doesn't matter...they should be practicing government all the way up to GW's last day
#2 speculation and opinion

and

#1 False...I thought the exact same thing...but if they did it right...Cheney wouldn't take office...I believe it would then fall onto the Republican Party to replace the President and the Vice until the next election. (not sure on the latter)


Dumbya???.....Does this mean we can now begin inserting the H between the B and the O again? :)
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: BugsyR On: Fri May 30, 2008 1:05 pm

stockingfull wrote: Bottom line: everybody now knows the Clinton impeachment was hypocritical and politically stupid. That Pelosi had the fortitude to squelch the screams for vengeance in the Democratic party just shows how well-developed her political skill set is and how stateswomanlike she has turned out to be as Speaker. Because of her leadership, there won't be another presidential impeachment in our lifetimes. And that's probably a good thing.


You cannot say "everybody". I won't include myself in that group. First off it's in the history books...Bill Clinton most likely will be remembered more for a Blue Dress than what he accomplished for his country. Personally, I'll always remember him as being a lying sack. I applaud him for getting a hummer...from a much younger woman...but personally if I'm the most powerful guy on the face of the earth...I'm going to go visit Hef and borrow one of his girls...and I seriously won't lie about it. :)

All "Clinton lovers" believe it was hypocritical and politically stupid, that is more accurate. I stopped caring for him the first time we hit the beach in Somalia.

I guess you are right...it's a good thing Bush and Cheney didn't and won't get impeached...thanks! :)
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri May 30, 2008 1:06 pm

BugsyR wrote:
stockingfull wrote:
So here are the Top Four reasons why Dumbya wasn't impeached:
4. Pelosi and the new leadership knew that perpetuating the cycle of scorched earth by making impeachment just another arrow in the political quiver would not only be bad politics but the repeated paralysis of impeachments could threaten our system of government in the long run;
3. As the Republicans discovered in 1998-9, starting an impeachment halfway through a President's second term just doesn't gain you much; by the time you get him out, he nearly would have been out anyway;
2. As the Republicans found out in the 1998 mid-terms, the electorate doesn't like "political impeachments" of Presidents and will pay the "persecuting party" back with losses in elections they could have won;
and the Number 1 reason Bush wasn't impeached:
1. Dick Cheney would have become Prez. :fear:


#4 Horse manure...if the public keeps voting in what some say are "criminals" or "liars" our Congress is there to make sure the President stays in check. Once again...IF Bush is a criminal...impeach him and Cheney
#3 Doesn't matter...they should be practicing government all the way up to GW's last day
#2 speculation and opinion

and

#1 False...I thought the exact same thing...but if they did it right...Cheney wouldn't take office...I believe it would then fall onto the Republican Party to replace the President and the Vice until the next election. (not sure on the latter)


Dumbya???.....Does this mean we can now begin inserting the H between the B and the O again? :)


The above just show how underdeveloped your political sensibilities are. Nearly everything in politics involves a cost-benefit analysis, and you ignore that in all of the above assertions.

And you can insert anything you want, as long as it's not in me! Whether it's BO or BHO, there are still somewhere between 13% and a third of the people in this country who believe that he's a Muslim. Yet the same idiots want to condemn him for the comments of Pastor Wright! Which, of course, makes him a Muslim who attends a Protestant church. :woot:

If democracy requires an educated public, we still have an awful long way to go. :shots:
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri May 30, 2008 1:14 pm

BugsyR wrote:
stockingfull wrote: Bottom line: everybody now knows the Clinton impeachment was hypocritical and politically stupid.


You cannot say "everybody". I won't include myself in that group. . . .

All "Clinton lovers" believe it was hypocritical and politically stupid, that is more accurate.


If you don't believe it was hypocritical, refer to some of the individuals prominent in it, all of whom were brought down, or down several notches, by the exposure of their own extramarital escapades: Newt, David Livingston, Henry Hyde. And those were just the heterosexuals! Don't forget Mark Foley and Larry Craig.

That it was hypocritical isn't opinion; it is a demonstrable fact.

That Pelosi decided that breaking the destructive cycle was not only more important, but smarter, than pursuing impeachment of the current administration on far better grounds, is evidence that she is a stateswoman.

Where I agree with you wholeheartedly is that he was slummin' with Monica. Kennedy's birthday party, serenaded by Marilyn in "the Dress," now that's Presidential! :up:

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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri May 30, 2008 1:49 pm

stockingfull wrote:That Pelosi had the fortitude to squelch the screams for vengeance in the Democratic party just shows how well-developed her political skill set is and how stateswomanlike she has turned out to be as Speaker. Because of her leadership, there won't be another presidential impeachment in our lifetimes. And that's probably a good thing.


Now here is where I, & alott of other Democrats (& many Republicans, secretly) disagree. If this crowd doesn't deserve impeachment, then no administration in history (or future admins) did or will! Lying us into a war, politlsizing all Executive Branch agencies, violating the Geneva conventions & ...the list goes on & on. Impeachment was written into the Constitution not as a poltical weapon but as a serious remedy to protect our government from dangerous tyrrants & criminals who may get into office but committ acts which warrant their removal. Nancy Pelosi did this country no favors by taking what I feel was the cowardly way out in not protecting us citizens from this gang. She, Harry Reid & Howard Dean have totaly misread the clear message that the voters sent them in the Nov/2006 elections, & I will never forgive them for it! (the Democratic party needs to dump these cowards & get leadership with a backbone!)
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: stockingfull On: Fri May 30, 2008 2:58 pm

I understand the sentiment, even the principled belief, that this was the kind of thing impeachment was really designed to address.

But the political cost, in galvanizing the Republicans, in the late date and in the necessary duplication (having to do 2 to get the benefit of one), all combine to make it worth more in the end to the GOP than to the good guys here. It literally would give the right wing an excuse to feel sorry for themselves.

I know it may seem like cowardice but, as the old saying goes, "discretion is the better part of valor."

Democrats will benefit far more in this election for not having done it than they would for having grabbed the sword and swung it immediately in what would have looked like knee-jerque retaliation for the Clinton impeachment.
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Re: Iraq Spinning Out Of Control....Again!

PostBy: Devil505 On: Fri May 30, 2008 5:09 pm

stockingfull wrote:I understand the sentiment, even the principled belief, that this was the kind of thing impeachment was really designed to address.

But the political cost, in galvanizing the Republicans, in the late date and in the necessary duplication (having to do 2 to get the benefit of one), all combine to make it worth more in the end to the GOP than to the good guys here. It literally would give the right wing an excuse to feel sorry for themselves.

I know it may seem like cowardice but, as the old saying goes, "discretion is the better part of valor."

Democrats will benefit far more in this election for not having done it than they would for having grabbed the sword and swung it immediately in what would have looked like knee-jerque retaliation for the Clinton impeachment.



I fully understand the political justifications for not going ahead with a double impeachment of Bush & Cheney, which should have been immediately started back in late 2006 when the Dems took over & could set the agenda. While I cognitively understand these reasons, I do not accept their validity. Sometimes you have to throw away the political polls, stop worrying about your own political butt, "bite the bullet" & do the right thing! As Mike alluded to, these Congressmen & women took a solemn oath to "Protect & Defend" the Constitution which they have allowed this administration to laugh at! (Hell....They don't even appear when subpoenaed by legitimate Congressional Committees!)
I think Democrats would have benefited far more this election, from standing up to the Bully's than to have just handed over "our" lunch money to them!
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