The Enemy

Re: The Enemy

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:57 am

Richard S. wrote:Confused yet? :lol: Shall i dig out some more quotes from the good doctor that you have used as a source?


No, Richard, here's what you should do, IMO. You should do some research of your own on people who have deeper knowledge of Islam than any of us here, not to support your preconceived notions of what's right, but to learn; you should keep an open mind, and you should, above all, recognize that we'll NEVER militarily defeat a multi-billion person world-wide religious movement.

NEVER.

So, either we get smarter and figure out a better way, or keep escalating until WWIII starts, if that makes you happier.
stockingfull
 
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:04 am

stockingfull wrote:And one very logical way to do the latter is to get out of their back yard, which is the best recruiting tool we possibly could give them.


but... this has been going on long before we were in their backyard.
Richard S.
 
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: spc On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:05 am

stockingfull wrote:
spc wrote:
stockingfull wrote:For the time being, while the West is aimlessly exaggerating the "War on Terror" and trying to accommodate Islamism as a social movement that should not be provoked at the least, it is ignoring the root causes of this "War" and is seemingly unwilling to change directions.


Does this guy see the daily threat assessments?


Do you? And what "threat assessments" are you talking about? Those prepared by the military for the President? If so, those merely measure how many times we've been around the endless loop of this conflict, which misses the whole point of the article.

We're going to have to start thinking outside the box on all this.

So I'm going to listen to the assessment of the "War on Terror" from a Arabic scientist/publicist from Kuwait living in Germany. :no1:
Last edited by spc on Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:08 am

stockingfull wrote:No, Richard, here's what you should do, IMO. You should do some research of your own on people who have deeper knowledge of Islam than any of us here, not to support your preconceived notions of what's right, but to learn; you should keep an open mind, and you should, above all, recognize that we'll NEVER militarily defeat a multi-billion person world-wide religious movement.


Actually stockingfull I have done quite a bit of research on the whole Islam/Jewish/Christianity bit and know quite a bit of what has gone on from ancient times to the present. If you wish to debate any of it I'll more than oblige.
Richard S.
 
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:41 am

Richard S. wrote:
stockingfull wrote:No, Richard, here's what you should do, IMO. You should do some research of your own on people who have deeper knowledge of Islam than any of us here, not to support your preconceived notions of what's right, but to learn; you should keep an open mind, and you should, above all, recognize that we'll NEVER militarily defeat a multi-billion person world-wide religious movement.


Actually stockingfull I have done quite a bit of research on the whole Islam/Jewish/Christianity bit and know quite a bit of what has gone on from ancient times to the present. If you wish to debate any of it I'll more than oblige.


Glad to hear that we have an expert here. How about favoring us with some sources, or publications, which you've found enlightening, without cherry-picking the parts you happen to like. Because two can play that game, as you surely know.

To me, it's obvious: if we want to really solve this problem, we have to begin with the realization that we'll NEVER defeat a multi-billion person world-wide religious movement with military force.

Where, then, does your extensive study of "the whole Islam/Jewish/Christianity bit" leave us? Because personally, my most closely held religious belief is that they're all BS, every single one of them. They're selling the ultimate snake oil: promises of good and bad in a hereafter that nobody can prove. All of them have basically similar sets of doctine that preserved some order in pre-law societies, and most of them are intolerant of their competition. But I'm sure you can explain how tolerant and civil the Crusades and the Inquisition were, so we'll all have a healthy perspective on all this horrible "death to the infidels" business.

If there is a God, I'd bet the ranch that he's not happy with any of the frauds passing for organized religions on this planet. But that doesn't obviate the need to deal intelligently with them, not unlike the other diseases it's in our common interest to address.
Last edited by stockingfull on Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:44 am

spc wrote:
stockingfull wrote:
spc wrote:
Does this guy see the daily threat assessments?


Do you? And what "threat assessments" are you talking about? Those prepared by the military for the President? If so, those merely measure how many times we've been around the endless loop of this conflict, which misses the whole point of the article.

We're going to have to start thinking outside the box on all this.

So I'm going to listen to the assessment of the "War on Terror" from a Arabic scientist/publicist from Kuwait living in Germany. :no1:


We better start listening to somebody who knows more about these people than we do. Too bad you don't get that.
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: spc On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:45 am

I don't get this either. This is what they do to their own children.
"A woman was beaten up and shot dead by her father for talking online with a man she met on the website Facebook."
"According to a Muslim cleric the problem is not the father and his interpretation of the Qu'ran. Facebook is the Great Satan"

And "Islam is the Religion of Peace and Tolerance"?


http://sugiero.blogspot.com/2008/03/saudi-arabia-facebook-girl-beaten-shot.html
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:48 am

To paraphrase the good Senator from Arizona, "Well, my dear friend, until we start to 'get it,' we're not in a very good position to address it."
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: spc On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 10:58 am

stockingfull wrote:To paraphrase the good Senator from Arizona, "Well, my dear friend, until we start to 'get it,' we're not in a very good position to address it."
Is that an endorsement? :lol:
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:00 am

spc wrote:
stockingfull wrote:To paraphrase the good Senator from Arizona, "Well, my dear friend, until we start to 'get it,' we're not in a very good position to address it."
Is that an endorsement? :lol:


Good point. I meant to use the language derisively, not adopt the Senator's Middle East policy. OTOH, should that become his policy, I'll give the old codger another look. ;)
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:20 am

I've been busy putting in baseboards but I keep checking back here to this obsession....as my wife calls it! :)
I don't think a bunch of guys on an Anthracite Coal Forum in the NE US have much hope in solving a cultural/religeous rift that has been going on for thousands of years. I think it much more beneficial to narrow our focus to what is the best way to solve the horrendous dilema we have gotten ourselves embroiled in in the Middle East. Again, we have tried the military approach & we cant afford, nor do the American people have the will to continue the present tactics. I still have not heard a logical reason (other than it might not work) why we shouldn't at least try the redeployment tactic for a change. I think it will work & it will definetly (at least) save American lives & billions of dollars!
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:08 pm

Richard, you've gotta stop letting your wife post for you! :D
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: spc On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:13 pm

Devil5052 wrote:I keep checking back here to this obsession....as my wife calls it! :)
If the wife walks in the room wearing a negligee step away from the computer. ;)
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:36 pm

Anyone care to give me a serious answer to my earlier question?

........"we have tried the military approach & we cant afford, nor do the American people have the will to continue the present tactics. I still have not heard a logical reason (other than it might not work) why we shouldn't at least try the redeployment tactic for a change. I & alot of high ranking military men think it will work, & it will definetly (at least) save American lives & billions of dollars!"....

I really mean it.
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Re: The Enemy

PostBy: pvolcko On: Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:41 pm

stockingfull wrote:And Paul, there was neither dynamite nor remote control garage door openers nor cell phones nor the internet in the 18th century. So, unless you can point me to some weapons analysis to the contary, surprise bombings directed at civilian targets were as impossible then as cruise missle strikes -- oh, unless you had access to the "surgical accuracy" of a mortar. No civilians ever slaughtered by those babies. :roll: Now, one other minor detail: just in case you didn't know, there weren't that many British civilians in the 18th century colonies, so your challenge to find accounts of "British store bombers" is, to be charitable, both logistically and technologically specious.


Ever hear of a fuse? It was a time honored way of making a big boom without getting yourself killed in the process. How about getting 20 people together to light the back of each building on main street on fire when a bell rings. Suicide bombers walking into crowded markets and parking alongside important buildings (or driving right into them) are popular among our enemy, seems like a great tactic that could have been used even in the day of the powderkeg and horse and buggy.

The entire colonies were chuck full of innocent British citizens who didn't want the revolution to happen. And Irish and French and Spanish and whathaveyou. Everyone was a subject of a European power. As I recall the American Revloution wasn't too awefully popular to begin with, something like 15%-25% of colonists were into the militant approach, another 25% favored stopping short of revolt. Leaves 50% or more that were comfortable with the status quo or at least unfavorable to the revolution.

And the whole point is that to draw equivalences, be they tactical or moral/ethical, between the revolutionaries and the jihadis is preposterous. If the revolutionaries were like the jihadis, they would have rode a wagon of fused powerkegs packed in small iron scrap or lead bullets straight into the center of the biggest group of people they could find, be they 1% or 80% British loyalists, and kaboom. They could have, but they didn't. Instead they rioted and got some hot lead, justifiably so as the case was, for their trouble. They dumped a bunch of tea into the harbor without killing or injuring a single person, British loyalist or Rebel. Some of the rebels even wanted to repay the loyalist merchant for the tea! The subhuman bastards.

Was the revolution a whiteglove affair, of course not. But it wasn't the anything-goes catastrophy of immorality and irrational philosophy that the Jihadi's so obviously engage in.

And Paul, your argument about the Boston Massacre is just silly.


Oh no you didn't. :nana:

As has been said, we have a very different view of things. For instance, I personally find myself to be hysterical, not merely silly. :)
pvolcko