The Enemy

Paul, the Brits thought we were barbarians then -- and many of them still do, in no small measure due to the perception that a not-very-smart dude cowboy is running our foreign policy. Stereotypical American to them.

And that's the point. Not to get bogged down in the debate about equivalency, but to realize that there are vastly different perceptions about who's in the right and who's in the wrong in every conflict. Iraq is certainly no exception.

In today's news is an item that Islam has just passed Catholicism as the world's most populous religion. 1.3 Billion to 1.1. My overarching point is that there's only one way we are going to be able to cope with this population, and that's by striving for a better understanding of and dialogue with it. We will simply never win with military force. Just isn't gonna happen. In fact, it might not be a coincidence that Islam currently is not only the largest but by far the fastest growing world religion. We're doing more to grow their number than we seem to understand.

So, we have to study more, shoot less for a while, defend our homes, and consider their rightful perception that we should stay out of theirs. If you don't think that perception is at the source of the modern Arab hostility toward us, if not a wider Muslim hostility, we'll just have to disagree because it's obvious to me and to many, many others. And if our policy doesn't start recognizing that and making adjustments, we'll continue to be stuck in what nearly everybody calls a quagmire.

Only this one won't end with copters lifting off an embassy roof. It'll end with nukes -- and no winners.

stockingfull wrote:In today's news is an item that Islam has just passed Catholicism as the world's most populous religion. 1.3 Billion to 1.1.

Since there is quite a variety of Muslims, it would be more accurate to compare them to Christians. They make up about 33% of the world's population. That said, they are pumping out babies like crazy and western cultures have actually been losing birth rates at an alarming rate. So it won't take them long to pass the Christians too. The big one is coming, that is what they are all about.

Well Stockingfull I've never claimed to be a "expert" but have gathered enough information through the years through various articles, texts, world history (did I mention history was my favorite subject?), television news and documentaries to form what I think is pretty good rounded opinion on the matter. Even fiction if you want to throw that in, "The Source" by James Mitchener, fiction but excellent read nonetheless. I'm a voracious reader, fiction ,history, news.. I read it all. I used to read the paper out of fifth grade front to back. I don't take one text and read it and see it as the ultimate truth... I try and get as many perspectives on the matter as possible and keep an open mind. For example i read the entire article you posted by Dr Sami Alrabaa, then found a few more articles written by him and came to the conclusion he's a dreamer such as yourself. I'll say one thing , at least he's honest about the facts about how these radicals aren't looking for peace.

As far as the Islam/Jewish/Christian issue goes as it relates to the "Holy Land" I'm sure you know this has been ongoing problem since the first two people started and argument over who's invisible man was more powerful, this has gone on for centuries. Each of these religions certainly has their gripes and things they can point to that the other has done to other since ancient times right up until the present all in the name of religion.

Lets get down to the heart of the matter, the Jewish occupation of "The holy" land. This is what it all really boils down to, that and the perception that we support the Jews which is true to some extent. What is really ironic though is that the state of Israel was created because the Jews took it from the Arabs as result of Arab actions, it wasn't handed to them as is commonly believed. The recognition of the State of Israel by the U.S. certainly played a role and I'd imagine is sore spot for Arab- U.S. relations, however prior to that the Jews were accepting of many proposals most of which were in favor of the Arabs All these proposals were rejected by the Arabs. They simply wanted the Jews gone.

After the end of the British mandate the Brits left "The Holy Land" to let the Jews fend for themselves, it was expected that the newly formed Jewish state would be overrun in short time. The Arabs had superior numbers and superior forces... This of course never happened, they got their asses handed to them and then some. I forget the documents name but i believe it's the Israeli constitution or something very much like that even after all this... offered believe it or not Palestinian autonomy in the the newly formed state of Israel. Rejected again by the Arabs. It's my understanding the Palestinians that ae citizens of Israel still enjoy the same voting rights as any Jewish citizen although they are certainly restricted in their movements.

... a few years later and a few wars after that if you want to call them that, again started by the Arabs only to have their asses handed to them again. I guess we can assume having some nut cake try to exterminate your race is quite an incentive to try and prevent it again. In any event the Israelis kept gaining ground and kept beating off the Arabs.

This brings us to the present day , you have Jewish state in the heart of Muslim countries sitting on top of some of their most holiest sites much larger than anything they would of had if the Arabs had simply accepted the proposals after WW2 or the many that came after that. I find it humorous that most of the Jewish state was begotten through the idiocy of the Arabs. These people hate the Jews, they think of them as less than dirt. They perceive us and the rest of the Western world as enablers so that hatred overflows onto us the "enablers". To some extent that is true but the Jewish people aren't going anywhere with or without our help at this point in time. If that was American tanks rolling into Tel-Aviv instead of Baghdad every last one of them would have fought to the death. So there lies the crux of the problem. An Islamic world that wants to annihilate the Jews... or at the very least get them out of the holy Land, and yes I said Islamic world, lets face it they all hate them.



Shaykh Abdur Rahmaan As-Sudays From wikipedia :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdul_Rahman_Al-Sudais

Abdul Rahman Ibn Abdul Aziz as-Sudais an-Najdi (Arabic: عبد الرحمن السديس (ʕabd ar-Raxman ibn ʕabd al-Aziz as-Sudais an-Najdi), born Riyadh, Saudi Arabia in 1961)[1] is the leading imam of the Grand mosque in the Islamic holy city of Mecca, Saudi Arabia and the "Islamic Personality Of the Year" 2006. In some of his sermons, al-Sudais has vilified non-Muslims and has called for the annihilation of Jews.[2]

Now I'm not a "expert" on the structure of the hierarchy in the Muslim world of Imans but I don't think we have to argue about this mans credentials, he is after all preaching at the Muslim world's holiest place....

There really is no need for me to say it, I'll let him speak for himself. The following quotes were all taken from this sermon:

http://www.alharamainsermons.org/eng/mo ... cle&sid=71

Read the history to know that yesterday’s Jews are evil predecessors and today’s Jews are worse successors. They an ingrate people, they altered God’s words, worshipped calf, killed Messengers and denied their Messages. They are exiled people and the worst of mankind. Allaah cursed them and cast His wrath upon them. He turned some of them to monkeys and pigs and worshippers of creatures. They are worst in position and are astray from the right path.

Fellow Muslims! Today we are facing the most severe war against the enemies of yesterday, today and tomorrow; a war against the descendants of Banu Qurayzah, Banu Nadeer, Banu Qaynuqaa.* May everlasting curse of Allaah be upon them. Can our people now understand the true colour of these accursed and erroneous people after their evil have become widespread and their aggression has become well-known?

It is for sure that those who perpetrate this crime and those who collaborate with them will never escape the punishment of All-Powerful Lord. They will also not escape the wrath of nations and history, for the massacre is imaginable and words only are not enough to describe it and its consequences.

Your Intifada has gloriously recorded one of the most wonderful examples of bravery in the contemporary history and you have restored our hope. So be sure of the help and victory of Allaah when you help His religion. He says,

“If you help (in the cause of) Allaah, He will help you and make your foot firm.”

(Muhammad 47:7)

Our hearts are with you and may Allaah help you. Continue on your course and revive your aims. Congratulations on the souls you have sacrificed in the way of Allaah. We pray that Allaah accept those of you who are killed as martyrs, give the sick and the injured quick recovery and bestow on us and you the happy life. Do not despair of the mercy of Allaah, for victory is coming, Insha Allaah.

Nice guy eh? This isn't some half assed backwwods Iman from butt-*censored* Afghanistan saying this but someone with prestige and power within the ranks of the Muslim faith. There plenty more where that came from if you want to dig into it, from him and others... you only have to open your eyes and look.

The bottom line is..... these people have no respect for Jews, Christians or anyone else. That's the bottom line, they will never be happy as long as the Jewish state exist in the Middle East and since we are seen as the enablers we will forever be entangled in this mess. As I mentioned in an earlier post the only people that can solve this is the Muslim people themselves, having a religious leader who are the real holders of power in these Muslim states like the one above is not going to solve this problem. Him and everyone like him have to be neutralized in anyway possible. There will never be peace until the people of the Muslim faith decide for there to be peace and they are certainly NOT going down that path.

Until then we have to do what we have to do, if that requires us to babysit the entire world so be it. However that is not going to happen...

At some point in the what I believe is the very near future there will be another major attack on the U.S. that is going to make the thousands of people killed during 9/11 look like a party. Prepare yourself because its coming, this country is entirely too vulnerable at too many points to prevent it. When that takes place all bets are going to be off, this talk you hear about the poor people in Guantanamo Bay and the waterboarding is no longer going to matter. Talk about whos right and whos wrong? pffffffft Won't matter.... It's going to be us or them and that's it.

If you cannot read the handwriting on the wall I really don't what else to say, hopefully I'm wrong but I can honestly say that IMO that is very unlikely.

Richard, I hoped you were going to bring something substantial to the table. It's about Israel? Wow.

Of course it is. And oil.

But let's address the point you discuss. Remember a year or so ago when Ahmadinejad was scoffed at for the temerity to ask why Palestine had been given to the Jews after WWII? How preposterous it was, right? But what's the answer to his question why, if the Holocaust was caused by Germany, a piece of Germany or Europe wasn't given over for a Jewish homeland instead of Palestine, which was faultless? Sure, we think it an outrageous question, but maybe that's because we don't have a good answer.

It's so basic, first we park Israel there and then we, ahem, "grease the palms" of corrupt "royal families" to get their oil on our terms. It's not like we poked a finger in their eye, it's like we have a finger in each eye. And we're surprised they're ticked off at us?

There are lots of scholars out there who've studied Islam and can help us understand how to co-exist with peaceful Muslim people, who clearly number in the hundreds of millions (if there really were hordes of radicals, it would be easy to find them and wipe them out). IMO, that's really the only choice we have left, because all our military might isn't a pea-shooter against 1.3 Billion believers. So we can't make this into a religious war because, in the end, we can't possibly win it.

So, once again, if we're really as smart as we like to think we are, we'll have to find another way. We neither want to nor can do anything about Israel, it's been under siege for nearly every minute of its existence, and it's proved quite capable, thank you, of defending itself. But I do believe we can start with getting ourselves out of the Middle East, not all of a sudden, but, for openers, by sending a clear signal that we have no wish to occupy their Holy Land. We still have prodigious naval and air power to bring to bear on anything untoward which may develop there.

But I sure don't see why we should stand in the middle of their circular firing squad in Iraq. If they want to have a civil war, let them.

Meantime, we better get to work on conservation and alternative fuels.

Israel was a Jewish state long before there was a Muslim religion or Allah. Before the Romans too.

stockingfull wrote:

coalkirk wrote:You simply do not understand the enemy we face which is Islam. It forbids them from negoitiating or compromising with their enemy. You'll be singing "Cumbya" right up until the time they kill you.

I didn't say anything about Kumbaya. I said what we've been doing to combat radical Islam isn't working -- to the contrary, it's making the problem worse -- and we have to figure out a better way.

Please forgive me, I have not been following this discussion over the past few days, I tried to catch up but I have a short attention span. There is no way to effectively "combat" radical Islam. At the rate at which they are breeding and teaching their children to embrace this sick way of thinking will present us with hordes of like-minded people whose only purpose in life will be to further their beliefs. Too many times we are trying to understand other cultures and ways of thinking by picturing them as people who live as we do, we have to clear our minds of these type of thoughts and really try to envision how these people really live. I am very skeptical on religion as a whole, the obsessions these radical Islamics demonstrate only sends bad signals to me.
I don't think they will ever be defeated, as said earlier, the worst is yet to come.

Richard S. wrote:At some point in the what I believe is the very near future there will be another major attack on the U.S. that is going to make the thousands of people killed during 9/11 look like a party. Prepare yourself because its coming, this country is entirely too vulnerable at too many points to prevent it. When that takes place all bets are going to be off, this talk you hear about the poor people in Guantanamo Bay and the waterboarding is no longer going to matter. Talk about whos right and whos wrong? pffffffft Won't matter.... It's going to be us or them and that's it.

If you cannot read the handwriting on the wall I really don't what else to say, hopefully I'm wrong but I can honestly say that IMO that is very unlikely.

Agreed 100%
I have always felt there would be more after 9/11.
People move on, the bastards are patiently waiting for all of us to become complacent again.
Remember all the signs and flags on cars right after 9/11? where are they now? How many people fly the flag outside of their house now?

I do.

Wood'nCoal wrote:Please forgive me, I have not been following this discussion over the past few days, I tried to catch up but I have a short attention span. There is no way to effectively "combat" radical Islam. At the rate at which they are breeding and teaching their children to embrace this sick way of thinking will present us with hordes of like-minded people whose only purpose in life will be to further their beliefs. Too many times we are trying to understand other cultures and ways of thinking by picturing them as people who live as we do, we have to clear our minds of these type of thoughts and really try to envision how these people really live. I am very skeptical on religion as a whole, the obsessions these radical Islamics demonstrate only sends bad signals to me.
I don't think they will ever be defeated, as said earlier, the worst is yet to come.

Well....Aren't we bright & cheery tonight John!
Made my night!
(gonna go drink some hemlock)

Devil5052 wrote:

Wood'nCoal wrote:Please forgive me, I have not been following this discussion over the past few days, I tried to catch up but I have a short attention span. There is no way to effectively "combat" radical Islam. At the rate at which they are breeding and teaching their children to embrace this sick way of thinking will present us with hordes of like-minded people whose only purpose in life will be to further their beliefs. Too many times we are trying to understand other cultures and ways of thinking by picturing them as people who live as we do, we have to clear our minds of these type of thoughts and really try to envision how these people really live. I am very skeptical on religion as a whole, the obsessions these radical Islamics demonstrate only sends bad signals to me.
I don't think they will ever be defeated, as said earlier, the worst is yet to come.

Well....Aren't we bright & cheery tonight John!
Made my night!
(gonna go drink some hemlock)

Devil, I am a very "black and white" kind of person, there are usually no gray areas. Sorry about the dismal forecast!

Wood'nCoal wrote:Devil, I am a very "black and white" kind of person, there is usually no gray areas. Sorry about the dismal forecast!

Unfortunately, I could agree with your fears....but......I still hold out some hope that if we start doing the right things, there is still some hope. Militaily you are right. We cannot defeat a "state of mind" with napalm!

No, napalm's not going to do it. We're going to need Qurans with small pox. Old British trick.

You do not think bringing a top cleric spewing bile like that isn't a significant contribution to this conversation. I see you've convenietnly side stepped addressing that...

stockingfull wrote:But let's address the point you discuss. Remember a year or so ago when Ahmadinejad was scoffed at for the temerity to ask why Palestine had been given to the Jews after WWII? How preposterous it was, right? But what's the answer to his question why, if the Holocaust was caused by Germany, a piece of Germany or Europe wasn't given over for a Jewish homeland instead of Palestine, which was faultless? Sure, we think it an outrageous question, but maybe that's because we don't have a good answer.

First the return of the Jews to the Holy Land started long before the end of WW2. It started long before WW1. For that you'd have ot back to the mid 1800's This was simmering long before then, the exodus of Jews from Europe after WW2 only brought it to a boiling point, they were actually being turned back before the Arab-Israeli war. You missed what is probably one of the most important points I made. The Jewish homeland wasn't given to the Jews it was taken from the Arabs by the Jews. They simply kicked their ass in 1948 and it wasn't because of help provided by the Western world. The original plan before the first Arab-Isaeli war split present day Israel giving most of the prime property and better living quarters to the Arabs but they rejected the proposal. The Arabs have only themselves to blame for what is present day Israel, if they had been tolerant enough to accept the original proposal or even subsequent proposals they wouldn't be in the situation they are now. Instead they chose a path of violence which contiues to this day, not once but many times and each time they have lost badly. IMO the state of Israel has every right to exist in its present form, their hand was forced.

There are lots of scholars out there who've studied Islam and can help us understand how to co-exist with peaceful Muslim people,

And again you're missing the point, there may very well be 1.3 billion Muslims and only 1 million of them are radicals but those 1 million radicals are the ones that are in control. How many Muslim clerics did you see stand up and denounce the 9/11 attacks? Let's take the Iman I quoted above, he's more than willing to give lip service for people such as yourself when preaching to the Western World however as the texts I quoted clearly point out he's clearly a anti-semite. there are numerous other sermons that can be quoted from him they say much the same thing.

Again I don't know the hierarchy of the Muslim religion but I'd have to guess if you compared it to the Catholic religion he'd be somewhere around a Cardinal. Could you imgine if a Cardinal, Bishop or even your local catholic priest started uttering such nonsense in a sermon? He wouldn't be uttering any Sermons after that is a given... The people of the Muslim world as a whole will not stand up to these people, they are following along like sheep led to the slaughter.

Cowardice? Quite possibly, I'd imagine speaking out against such a person would result in death. They may be afraid to admit but I am not.

IMO, that's really the only choice we have left, because all our military might isn't a pea-shooter against 1.3 Billion believers

And on that point you are completely wrong, if they wanted to wipe out every man woman and child in the Middle East it wouldn't take all that long. Indisricimantly wiping out entire population centers would not be that hard, you don't even have to actually kill them. Just kill the things that sustain their life. Water food etc... Quite simple actually. Sure you might miss a couple million but they too would be routed out eventually. Of course that's not what we're about and i would never suggest such a thing, I'm not a religious man but I thank god these powers are possessed by us and not them.

Oh man. This whole discussion is like the worst Glenn Beck doom-a-log ever. I'm thinking I need to take tomorrow off to go one a shopping trip. Buy 6 months worth of food, water and supplies. Stop off at the gun shop and buy not just myself a rifle, but one for everyone in my family along with a case of ammo each. Then build a bomb shelter in the basement. And for the final touch empty my accounts and buy gold to stash away in some carefully hidden holes in the back nine.

Then put out the lawn chair, cook some burgers, drink some beer, and wait for the bright flash on the horizon.

Sleep well, one and all.

Anybody remember Dana Carvey doing Bush 41?

"Naa-gaa-happen."

I don't subscribe to the "Glenn Beck Armageddon school." I don't believe that 1.3 Billion Muslims are radical, or even destined to be somehow controlled by radicals.

That's not to say I don't agree that radical clerics are a problem. But people will only follow radicals to their doom when the other choices are no better. If we can make sure that's not the case, the radical voices will be marginalized.

And I'll say another thing: not that I'm looking for it, but, were I ever faced with the choice to either follow Allah or die, I'd give the old boy a try before falling on my sword for some other God(s) nobody's ever seen. No organized religion is worth mine or my family's life.