Wow!!!

plumber147 · Post by **plumber147** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 8:06 am

ok new 3000 is in basement....3 hours,8 men,1 truck, quad w/winch and 2-30 packs.And now pipe and wire questions.

Current boiler oil Burnham

1) 6 zones with circulators and flo control valves on supply side.
2) currently 3 zones go to in floor radiant with mixing valves( some day all will be radiant ) 3 zones copper baseboard.
3) domestic water is also supplied by boiler ( would like to get boiler mate)
4) wired to 6 zone switching relay ( which is full )

I am a plumber by trade and do install lots of oil boilers but coal is new looking for most efficent way to hook up. By the way fuel oil is at 3.89 per gallon/ hard coal is 145.00 ton. Thanks

coalkirk · Post by **coalkirk** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 8:34 am

Simplest is best. Plumb the supply from the coal boiler into the return of the oil boiler. All your zones stay as they are with the present controls. Then pipe from the supply of the oil boiler back to the return of the coal boiler. I'd use 1 1/4" pipe. Put a circulator in this loop. Probably only 1 30 pack.

1975gt750 · Post by **1975gt750** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 8:50 am

i have to agree with coalkirk plumb it in series is the easiest and simpilist way to this . I have a keystoker kaa-2 in series with my oil burner and the only thing I had to do was to make a relay box to seperate my t-stats. check out my other threads on this subject I posted plenty of pics

chris

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 9:47 am

plumber147 wrote:ok new 3000 is in basement....3 hours,8 men,1 truck, quad w/winch and 2-30 packs.And now pipe and wire questions.

Current boiler oil Burnham

I am a plumber by trade and do install lots of oil boilers but coal is new looking for most efficent way to hook up. By the way fuel oil is at 3.89 per gallon/ hard coal is 145.00 ton. Thanks

As you a plumber - and a wet guy in the heating biz - you know about primary and secondary loop piping - and how to pipe boilers in parallel and into that primary loop - With the mix of baseboard - Radiant - and DHW production - now is the time to step up and build an efficient distribution system in the boiler room to accommodate the whole business.

Yes a simple series installation by you could be done very quickly - but why if there is a better way and you are easily able to do it?

Benefits = better / easier zone and boiler balance and operation - and that equals less coal used.

plumber147 · Post by **plumber147** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 12:56 pm

By using the easy method wont this take away from my other zones that are calling for heat ? STING talk to me I am listening!!!!

coalkirk · Post by **coalkirk** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 2:38 pm

I'm not sure how Sting is recommending you plumb it but with the "easy" method, essentially you use your oil boiler as a mixing vessel for the hot water from the coal boiler and the return water from your zones. Your zones should work exactly the way they do now, just without burning oil.

LsFarm · Post by **LsFarm** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 2:58 pm

Here is a link to a long discussion about simple vs 'more complicated' plumbing of a boiler..

How to Plumb a Harman VF3000 Boiler

Either simple or complicated,, you will enjoy the coal burning..

Greg L

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plumber147 · Post by **plumber147** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 4:06 pm

My current zones are 3/4 and the loop would be 1 1/4, should I install relay to shut off 1 1/4 circulator on a call for heat.So the bigger pipe wont rob from other zones.( I did read other post and that made my head spin) Also do I need to worry about a dump zone ?

LsFarm · Post by **LsFarm** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 6:17 pm

What you want to do is to keep the oil boiler hot, using the heat from the coal boiler... so keep the the coal to oil boiler loop open and running, once the water is up to temp, the aquastat in the coal boiler will be satisfied and the stoker will back down the coal fire.

If you have the oil boiler's water temp set 40* or so below the water temp in the coal boiler, then the coal boiler will carry the BTU load for the house.

Just re-plumb the cold water return from the zones to go through the coal boiler first, get heated, then return to the oil boiler then be distributed by the zone valves and circulators..

Each system is different, and will require job-specific different plumbing..

I don't think you need to worry about a dump zone, if your coal boiler tends to overshoot the high limit then you might have to wire one of your zones to be a dump zone.

I agree, that other thread gave me a headache too... My system is very simple, I just route the zone return water [cold] ] through my coal heated heat exchanger, raising it to 30* above my propane boiler's burner temp setting. This way I had to do nothing but the plumbing... the circulators, zones, wiring etc stayed the same.. I'm pretty sure my system is fairly typical...

Greg L

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 9:16 pm

plumber147 wrote:By using the easy method wont this take away from my other zones that are calling for heat ? STING talk to me I am listening!!!!

I am sort of getting beat up around here re: primary secondary piping so you should decide if its right for you.

here is a link for 4 books that I used to have - but borrowed once to many times.
**Broken Link(s) Removed**The primary secondary made ez is the one you want but the other three are great reading and help you make your systems run better - possibly the best 80 bucks you will ever spend on you hobby.

Kind Regards
Sting

Yanche · Post by **Yanche** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 10:21 pm

Sting wrote:
plumber147 wrote:By using the easy method wont this take away from my other zones that are calling for heat ? STING talk to me I am listening!!!!
I am sort of getting beat up around here re: primary secondary piping so you should decide if its right for you.

here is a link for 4 books that I used to have - but borrowed once to many times.
**Broken Link(s) Removed**The primary secondary made ez is the one you want but the other three are great reading and help you make your systems run better - possibly the best 80 bucks you will ever spend on you hobby.

Kind Regards
Sting

Primary - secondary systems have there place but you have to understand where to best use them. Check this link for a discussion about their correct use.

http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/Articles/Column/BNP_GUID ... 0000132571

Sting · Post by **Sting** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 10:37 pm

or to put it another way--

I am wrong when I suggest something really stone dumb simple

and I am wrong when I suggest something many don't understand that makes several appliances play efficiently in a challenging load.

Ill just go lay by my dish!

But thats a nice link to show how good intentions don't translate into a good system.

Series boilers will always have trade offs in system performance that parallel boilers will not - and that requires a bit more than hacking into the old boiler supply and return ports :punk:

Scottscoaled · Post by **Scottscoaled** » Sun. Mar. 30, 2008 10:40 pm

May as well get my two cents worth. So what happens during the summer with your boiler set up in series. If there is no call for heat the oil boiler cools enough to fire. So piping thru the coal boiler doesn't work so well for summer?

Scott

Yanche · Post by **Yanche** » Mon. Mar. 31, 2008 1:14 pm

stokerscot wrote:May as well get my two cents worth. So what happens during the summer with your boiler set up in series. If there is no call for heat the oil boiler cools enough to fire. So piping thru the coal boiler doesn't work so well for summer? Scott

I've got my coal and oil boilers piped in series but with isolation valves to remove and bypass the coal boiler. This allows me to service my coal boiler at any time and still have heat and domestic hot water via my indirect hot water heater. For the electric controls I have a manual summer/winter switch. In summer mode the oil boiler aquastat controls the oil burning firing and the resultant boiler water temperature. In winter mode the coal boiler aquastat controls the coal combustion blower and the resulatant boiler water temperature. In winter running the house return water through the oil boiler keeps it warm and it acts like a radiator for keeping the building (not my house) warm. In summer I isolate flow through the coal boiler because I don't want the radiation loss of the now oil heated boiler water. I do however keep one of the coal boiler valves cracked enough to get some heat into the coal boiler and prevent summertime rusting. It's a thermal siphon loop, coal boiler return (inlet) through the expansion tank piping (thermal return).

LsFarm · Post by **LsFarm** » Mon. Mar. 31, 2008 6:06 pm

stokerscott, if you are keeping the oil boiler able to make heat during the summer, then you must be using a DHW coil in the oil boiler?? If so, then you would want to have the coal boiler either have a balance loop to the oil boiler, or a circulator running to keep the two resevoirs of water equally hot.

Pure series with only the original single circulator is not the best for summer DHW, But pure series is the easiest. Each and every system is different.. the aquastats and relays are different, the loads, the volume of water, the DHW load etc ... all are different for each house and system... and family that lives there.

What works for me, right now during the winter will not work well if I decide to keep my boiler running all summer for DHW... I'll have to rethink the system...

But it was stone dead simple to install what I have and it serves me well.. For the $250 in propane to heat DHW for the summer, it's not worth the effort to replumb.. not yet anyway.

Greg L

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