Radiant Heat, Getting Nervous

 
n0useforaname
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Post by n0useforaname » Fri. Jan. 22, 2016 11:24 pm

Talked to the installer today. In short, I have a hydrostat that is set to 130 minimum amd 180 max.. And dump zone is a radiator in my garage. Typical temps running through my floor are what comes off the furnace if I understood him right. All I know is it works great.. House stays at perfect temps.. And I believe there is a loop at the furnace so cold/hot don't cause issues. He basically said that when you put radiant in joists.. That mixing valves, 24 hour circ pumps, etc.. are a waste of money. That people mainly just do that with concrete.. And he said out of 25 years of installs, he has even seen people run 180 through concrete slabs with zero issues for years.. And honestly I cant imagine my setup working better.. Hardlt using any coal and its been single digits out.. And all rooms stay a perfect 73..


 
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 12:11 pm

n0useforaname wrote:And honestly I cant imagine my setup working better.. Hardlt using any coal and its been single digits out.. And all rooms stay a perfect 73..
That's AWESOME!!!

It can be intimidating going in with all the designs and moving pieces that need to be balanced to work in perfect harmony. But once you get there... :punk:

 
waldo lemieux
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Post by waldo lemieux » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 2:03 pm

So am I getting that your circulating un-tempered water straight through on all zones? :shock: Im not surprised that it heats well but maybe concerned that the constant high temp water through the pex might cause a glitch..... maybe not though! Sometimes I suspect that an engineer someplace behind a desk comes up with these hydronic idioms with out ever trying things differently. Im glad its worked out for you . Anybody that has ever put in radiant floor heat is wearing the same grin you are. :D

 
n0useforaname
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Post by n0useforaname » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 2:27 pm

waldo lemieux wrote:So am I getting that your circulating un-tempered water straight through on all zones? :shock: Im not surprised that it heats well but maybe concerned that the constant high temp water through the pex might cause a glitch..... maybe not though! Sometimes I suspect that an engineer someplace behind a desk comes up with these hydronic idioms with out ever trying things differently. Im glad its worked out for you . Anybody that has ever put in radiant floor heat is wearing the same grin you are. :D
That is my understanding yes. Two of those zones are baseboard and a radiator.. the other is just the main floor of my house that contains five 300' rolls of 1/2 pex. And not sure why that would cause a glitch? Pex tubes aren't gonna melt.. Copper should be able to withstand that heat easily.. And boiler should have higher temps running through it anyways to remove condensation. Unless I'm missing something?

When I was originally buying all my stuff, I looked into manifolds with temp gauges, flow controllers, separate zone valves, mixing valves, etc... and it concerned me because not only were they expensive, but it was like 6 things on 1 piece to break or have issues.. Plus it came with extra electronics with actuators, zone controllers, etc.. Right now I have a copper manifold.. one return, one feed, that's it. I really like the fact that its more simple.

Now on another note.. I can understand why people may want all that extra stuff. My floor runs that hot water through it, gets really warm, then shuts off and cools down a bit.. (still warm to touch though).. and it goes through those cycles. Where if you have all that extra stuff, you could potentially run only 120-140 degree water through your floor which would still keep your house to temp, but the floor would always feel the same with warmth. Me personally, I don't care enough to spend the extra money and mess with it.. What I have now keeps me at a consistent 73 in every nook and cranny without issue.. and I'm hardly burning any coal at all doing it.

I just keep thinking how I read online that pex in joists didn't work.. staples didn't work.. reflective bubble wrap didn't work.. plates were 100% needed.. that thick carpet/padding didn't work.. etc.. I think people just try to sell stuff.. make their product look better.. because my pex in joists works.. my staples work.. my 1 layer of bubble wrap only works.. I dont' have plates.. and my thick carpet/padding is super warm and amazing to lay on.

Bottom line.. if you throw 140+ degree water through your entire floor.. it's gonna get warm in your house.

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Rob R.
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Post by Rob R. » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 3:06 pm

Glad you are happy with the system. Most of the people that I have talked to that are unhappy with a radiant system did not insulate under it properly, or the house is very drafty. You mentioned that your home is very well insulated and sealed, so it is a perfect candidate for radiant.
But keep in mind that 80% of my basement has super thick custom 2X2' ceiling tiles that actually have a reflective backing for better insulation
I think those ceiling tiles a nice compliment to the insulation. The bubble wrap looses its effectiveness over time anyway as it gets dusty.

The rest of the install looks alright. The airscoop may not work very well with such a short run of pipe before and after it, but if you aren't hearing any air in the system then it is fine. How close is the pex tubing on the coil to the flue pipe? Looks very close in the picture.

Please upload pictures directly to the forum. Using a different hosting service often results in broken links later.

 
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Post by Olllotj » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 4:01 pm

i don't see any zone valves? are you using just one thermostat?

Are you afraid that the 180* water will cook your sub floor? What kind of floors do you have?

Thanks for the pictures!

 
n0useforaname
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Post by n0useforaname » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 5:55 pm

flu pipe is 1' away from pex. But right now my furnace is a 174 degrees and I can hold my hand 1" away from the flu pipe and it honestly doesn't even feel warm on my hand. And I had no other choice about the flu because the furnace had to go in my garage, and the rear of my garage roof is only 6' high.. they way it was built was really high in the front.. like 12' or so then it tapers down to match my house. So they did the best they could.

And I have 3 thermostats.. they all run into that Argo box on my stove, and then to the circ pumps.. so if one of them calls for heat, it then turns that specific pump on. And I'm pretty sure my floors are 3/4 wood.... and I'm not too concerned about them being cooked.. My house is insulated very well.. and I honestly don't notice that zone kicking on very much.


 
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Post by KLook » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 8:53 pm

Basically, you are in a place that took many hours of education to get to for me and my brother years ago. He had the first system, which was the rubber hose stapled under wooden floors. No work, class action lawsuit with the rubber crap. replaced it with Pex, used a local plumbing friend, now running full temp water through it and it works fine. He has a wood boiler with a 500g storage tank.
Mine was a little different, concrete slab, another plumbing guy, 2- 500+ ft loops of 1/2 inch pex. Couldnt run hot enough water through it..... Back to the plumbing buddy,(long story) and I now use the tekmar system we removed from my brothers system, increased the circulator size, made it go 24/7 with another circ for an injection system and closely spaced T's. Voila, it works fine. My son is now running it with zero adjustments to the way I left it.
The further north you go, the more the systems depart from the "theory" installs I read about in here.

Kevin

 
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Post by n0useforaname » Sat. Jan. 23, 2016 10:06 pm

I talked to someone else tonight who installs this stuff.. he told me that I could add a mixing valve to the zone under my main floor, but he said it's not necessary at all.. just personal preference. Seems around these parts that people only use mixing valves on concrete slabs. My main issue now is keeping my furnace to temp... I posted another thread about settings I need to understand more.. and google and search didn't help.

 
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Post by TSox » Mon. Jan. 25, 2016 4:39 pm

I am completely ignorant when it comes to under floor radiant (so take what I say with a grain of salt :) ) but the more I talk to people that have done this (both DIYrs and so called Pros) the more I'm convinced that just about any way you want to try it, it will work. It's a matter of how well it will work ;) .

I would be a little concerned running 180* water under my subflooring all the time. Wood tends to shift and buckle when exposed to high heat overtime. Could be fine though :|

As for the heat transfer plates, I'm convinced they work. Too many people that knew I had already bought them (so they weren't trying to sell me anything :D ) have told me I made the right call. They make the system more efficient at transferring the heat. If they do that, They were worth the investment.

My Pap used to always say, "Go with the path well traveled... Less chance you end up in a ditch" :lol:.

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Tue. Jan. 26, 2016 9:22 am

I believe one of the drawbacks of thick carpeting over a heated floor is the breakdown of the padding over time.

As I recall, one thing the plates help do is keep a lower, uniform heat over your floor, instead of really hot spots right over the tubing and then fading rapidly as you move away from the tubing.

But if that happens, so what, right? Carpeting is easy to replace, but a comfortable and warm house that doesn't cost a fortune to heat...now THAT is pure gold!

Good luck and keep us informed how it works after you've used it a while, and long term ;)

 
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Post by n0useforaname » Tue. Jan. 26, 2016 1:53 pm

TSox wrote:I am completely ignorant when it comes to under floor radiant (so take what I say with a grain of salt but the more I talk to people that have done this (both DIYrs and so called Pros) the more I'm convinced that just about any way you want to try it, it will work. It's a matter of how well it will work .

I would be a little concerned running 180* water under my subflooring all the time. Wood tends to shift and buckle when exposed to high heat overtime. Could be fine though

As for the heat transfer plates, I'm convinced they work. Too many people that knew I had already bought them (so they weren't trying to sell me anything ) have told me I made the right call. They make the system more efficient at transferring the heat. If they do that, They were worth the investment.

My Pap used to always say, "Go with the path well traveled... Less chance you end up in a ditch"
I'm very 50/50 on the whole ordeal. In my area (Cambria county/Central PA) literally everyone I talked to had reflective bubble wrap and stapled tubes. They all told me the metal track was wasted money for me since my house is insulated well. My floors actually do heat evenly, but that could be due to the staples letting the tubing hang below and not touch the subfloor. I also was in a different situation because the ceiling I installed it to had drop ceiling already up.. canned lights.. some copper running through it, etc.. so if I did do that metal track, there may of been places that I couldn't of used it. I also am a tech geek.. so I have quite the setup in my basement and most power wires, cat5 cables, etc.. run through my ceiling, and they are a lot easier to modify/add/remove with bubble wrap, than to have fiberglass insulation there. I personally cannot stand working with fiberglass.. I'd have to dump the extra flo on denim or something. If I had to do it over again.. i'd probably go the same route, just because my house is running good without them, and my Zone hardly ever calls for heat and my floor is always warm. But I will add that if my house had a crawl space, unfinished basement, poor insulation, etc.. I would 100% buy the plates and do Denim under it.

Also.. they make a radiator type plate that attaches and hangs off of stapled pex.. its metal fins that go between the pex and cover the middle area.. worse case I try those for kicks :)
CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:I believe one of the drawbacks of thick carpeting over a heated floor is the breakdown of the padding over time.

As I recall, one thing the plates help do is keep a lower, uniform heat over your floor, instead of really hot spots right over the tubing and then fading rapidly as you move away from the tubing.

But if that happens, so what, right? Carpeting is easy to replace, but a comfortable and warm house that doesn't cost a fortune to heat...now THAT is pure gold!

Good luck and keep us informed how it works after you've used it a while, and long term ;)
My carpet is 100% gone.. I bought all new vinyl laminate flooring. Not a carpet fan since I have 3 kids, a dog, and 2 cats :D And as I stated above, I really don't get 'hot spots".. but I really think that's due to the pex hanging down.

 
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Post by TSox » Tue. Jan. 26, 2016 3:15 pm

Ok, I misunderstood your installation somehow. It could be all of the different people posting in this thread :D .

I know three people that have the same installation as you. They work just fine but require water temps up around 170-180*. Those guys are using OWBs so they don't worry much about the water temp. Of the three two of them are brothers. One is using the bubble wrap and one is using fiberglass. Both told me the fiberglass house seems to work better. That's their opinion so take that for what it cost you :D .

The third guy had an issue keeping the house up to temp on days below 0* so he went back and installed the transfer plates this year and has no issue now keeping the house warm and was even able to lower the water temp down a bit which in theory should save him some fuel. This is one of the things that sold me on the plates.

I had an older guy explain the plates to me like this... Hold your hand 3 inches away from a hot pipe. You can feel the heat coming off it right? Then hold it 2 inches... Then 1.. Then grab it with your bare hand :shock: . Which one transferred the heat to your hand better? Crude but I got the point :lol:

If your setup works and you're happy with it, I wouldn't change it either.

I have seen those "ultra fins" or whatever they call them. Reviews on them are mixed but might be worth a try.

 
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Post by TSox » Tue. Jan. 26, 2016 3:16 pm

I just noticed you're in Cambria county :shock:

I'm not far from you at all. Just down 219 in Somerset county.

Small world :lol:

 
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Post by n0useforaname » Tue. Jan. 26, 2016 8:42 pm

TSox wrote:I just noticed you're in Cambria county :shock:

I'm not far from you at all. Just down 219 in Somerset county.

Small world :lol:
Thats near Johnstown right? My old superintendent lived out in Windber.. Also made my way out there 4 years ago to rent an ice cream machine from an old lady on a farm. We also use a company in Johnstown called Inshore Technologies. Def is a small world!


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