Efficiency: Baseburners Vs. Modern "Box" Stoves

Pacowy · Post by **Pacowy** » Tue. Jan. 12, 2016 11:03 pm

All of the posters who are relying on the assertion that the efficiency of the stoker is impeded by issues related to unburned gases and/or excess air should take a cold shower or something, because AFAIK the advantages there are in the stoker's court. With hand-firing, some percentage of the volatiles is lost up the flue, and there is no easy way to know in real time whether the truly optimal amount of air is being supplied to the fire. With a flat (or underfeed) stoker, those volatiles are always exposed to open flame, and by simple monitoring of the ash ring the fuel/air mix can be optimized - i.e., to the point where if you add air you get less heat and if you reduce air you get less heat. So please stop imagining that these factors work against the stoker in a head-to-head comparison.

Mike

Post by **Richard S.** » Tue. Jan. 12, 2016 11:32 pm

ddahlgren wrote: Pre filling coal at 80 and oil at 70 is a bit off base. My boiler(oil) is around 2 years old and has an efficiency of 86.5%

The default values in the calculator have not been updated for a while, look at the prices.

The efficiency column is based on what the EIA calculator used that used averages for industry. It will be updated along with the whole site shortly, it's actually one of my larger projects for the upgrade because I want to expand it for things such as species of wood and air/ground sourced heat pumps.

As it sits it's a tool that works if you have the right input data. It will even work for heat pumps IF you know what the average efficiency is.

Post by **Richard S.** » Tue. Jan. 12, 2016 11:44 pm

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:49 am

Richard S. wrote:
ddahlgren wrote: Pre filling coal at 80 and oil at 70 is a bit off base. My boiler(oil) is around 2 years old and has an efficiency of 86.5%
The default values in the calculator have not been updated for a while, look at the prices. The efficiency column is based on what the EIA calculator used that used averages for industry. It will be updated along with the whole site shortly, it's actually one of my larger projects for the upgrade because I want to expand it for things such as species of wood and air/ground sourced heat pumps.

As it sits it's a tool that works if you have the right input data. It will even work for heat pumps IF you know what the average efficiency is.

Richard S it is a very good site and a tweak here and there maybe but I pointed out for stated mindset on a lot things and efficiency is one of them. The other is the 'baro damper' term thrown around and has nothing to do with baro. as if the baro is 29.92 a so called standard day and I raise firing rate it will open due to added heat input yet baro is 29.92. The RC Field company calls it a draft regulator as it is what it does. It is a simple example that frustrates someone with an engineering background.

wsherrick · Post by **wsherrick** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 1:37 pm

Well, I reckon since you are such an Einstein, you make us dumb ole folks feel down right low.
You and all of that engineerin' smarts has to be patient with us dumb ole base burner people.

KingCoal · Post by **KingCoal** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 1:57 pm

looks like my youngest brother on the left, eldest brother in middle and me on the right.

believe me we have have thought up and done more crazy sh!t than you could fit in a full print edition of the encyclopedia.

"just don't tell Mom "

Canaan coal man · Post by **Canaan coal man** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 2:38 pm

ddahlgren wrote:
Canaan coal man wrote:This might be beyond my little head caution dumb farmer math is on its way, but I still don't see how a larger stoker stove could have helped. At the end of the day my house needs a given amount of BTUs to stay at a given temp. BTU of coal stays as the same ( I know it varies from brand to brand vain to vain just bear with me) Say If the Channing is maxed at 450* (before I start wasting good coal off the end) and say the larger stoker 110btu idles at 450* And my house needs 450* to stay warm during a bitchy night How would the larger stoker use less coal? A larger stoker will have a wider range and yes be able to run higher temps with out pushing off good coal, but I wasn't consistently pushing good coal with the channing very rarely but it did happen a few times. Id say I was to the end of the spectrum with the channing but I don't feel a bigger stove was necessary to try at the time. Unless The larger stoker is more efficient at transferring heat than the channing they should need roughly the same amount of coal to keep the house happy. Right now the G6 is keeping my house happy with less coal. most ive burnt in 24hrs is
50-60 lbs running the stove at full bore 600-700*.
Funny my Crane 404 runs through 40 pounds a day for 74 to 76 in a 1500 sq fit house within 75 miles and winds screaming off the water. So I burn 20% less with a bit over an hours drive away with a crappy box stove in an uninsulated 1870's house Lucy you got some splaining to do about that BB

I have yet to try a modern hand fed stove for my set up, all my comparisons have been with my previous stoker stove. Those are really good #s you have with your 404, I wonder how one would do in my set up?

EarthWindandFire · Post by **EarthWindandFire** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:13 pm

Bill Sherrick,

Your arrogance and smugness needs to come down a notch. We have all sorts on this board, some more peculiar and eccentric than others. As I've said before, baseburners are amazing pieces of engineering. One can't go wrong whether they buy a Glenwood or a Hitzer, the differences are minor and almost inconsequential. The minutiae being discussed here is almost a waste of time. Each type of coal appliance serves a purpose and may be better suited for one application but not another. To each his own.

Post by **Richard S.** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:15 pm

Let's get back on topic, no need to get personal.

Thanks.

Post by **Lightning** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:36 pm

ddahlgren wrote:The other is the 'baro damper' term thrown around and has nothing to do with baro. as if the baro is 29.92 a so called standard day and I raise firing rate it will open due to added heat input yet baro is 29.92. The RC Field company calls it a draft regulator as it is what it does. It is a simple example that frustrates someone with an engineering background.

ba·rom·e·ter
(bə-rŏm′ĭ-tər)
n.
1. An instrument for measuring atmospheric pressure, used especially in weather forecasting.

2. Something that registers or responds to fluctuations; an indicator:

Ambient atmospheric pressure gots nothin to do with it.
It's all about the relative pressure difference between the inside of the stove and the room around it..
"Barometric damper" seems to fit the bill to me

Post by **franco b** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:43 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:Bill Sherrick,

Your arrogance and smugness needs to come down a notch. We have all sorts on this board, some more peculiar and eccentric than others. As I've said before, baseburners are amazing pieces of engineering. One can't go wrong whether they buy a Glenwood or a Hitzer, the differences are minor and almost inconsequential. The minutiae being discussed here is almost a waste of time. Each type of coal appliance serves a purpose and may be better suited for one application but not another. To each his own.

What you call arrogance and smugness on william's part was only because he was answering in kind the previous post.

The minutiae of stoves are interesting and I think valuable in selecting a stove.

For instance, one aspect of stoves is cleanliness, or not getting fly ash all over everything. to give an example, the Glenwood modern series has the ash pan in a recess so lifting it out does not drag ashes with it. On shaking there is a sliding inner door so only one shaker shaft can be exposed at a time and the exposed shaft is pretty well sealed by the shaker crank itself. The shaker shafts are accessed through a another small lift door in the ash door. It's obvious that a lot of thought and trouble went into this problem of shaking down without making a mess. In contrast my Franco Belge is impossible to avoid some fly ash because using a slicing poker is mandatory and withdrawing it always brings out some ash with it.

I do like the bi-metal thermostat on many modern stoves as well as the common use of a hopper.

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:47 pm

wsherrick wrote:Well, I reckon since you are such an Einstein, you make us dumb ole folks feel down right low.
You and all of that engineerin' smarts has to be patient with us dumb ole base burner people.

Thanks for the passive aggressive comment as it let's other open minded people know who they are talking to.

If you find calling things what they are or being questioned on unsustainable claims offensive might want to sit down and have some time on reflecting as to what is real and what is not.

Post by **franco b** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 3:57 pm

ddahlgren wrote:If you find calling things what they are or being questioned on unsustainable claims offensive might want to sit down and have some time on reflecting as to what is real and what is not.

In answer to you question of efficiency percentages in the fuel calculator, you are free to change them to whatever you want now.

I think Lightning answered your question of why barometric dampers are called barometric dampers.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:07 pm

Lightning wrote:Ambient atmospheric pressure gots nothin to do with it.
It's all about the relative pressure difference between the inside of the stove and the room around it

I most respectfully disagree.

Please don't hate

On cold clear days the chimney will develop a stronger draft at any given exhaust gas temperature than on a warmer low pressure day. So, on the cold day the baro will open more to maintain set stove side draft. On the warm damp days it closes more to maintain stove side draft.

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:09 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:Bill Sherrick,

Your arrogance and smugness needs to come down a notch. We have all sorts on this board, some more peculiar and eccentric than others. As I've said before, baseburners are amazing pieces of engineering. One can't go wrong whether they buy a Glenwood or a Hitzer, the differences are minor and almost inconsequential. The minutiae being discussed here is almost a waste of time. Each type of coal appliance serves a purpose and may be better suited for one application but not another. To each his own.

Well said better than I can do.

Efficiency: Baseburners Vs. Modern "Box" Stoves

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