Efficiency: Baseburners Vs. Modern "Box" Stoves

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:11 pm

scalabro wrote:
Lightning wrote:Ambient atmospheric pressure gots nothin to do with it.
It's all about the relative pressure difference between the inside of the stove and the room around it
I most respectfully disagree.

Please don't hate

On cold clear days the chimney will develop a stronger draft at any given exhaust gas temperature than on a warmer low pressure day. So, on the cold day the baro will open more to maintain set stove side draft. On the warm damp days it closes more to maintain stove side draft.

And none of it has one bit to do with baro LOL. Thanks for the support.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:16 pm

Wrong there dd

What r u talking about .... as barometric conditions change the baro damper reacts to them.

wsherrick · Post by **wsherrick** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:21 pm

ddahlgren wrote:
EarthWindandFire wrote:Bill Sherrick,

Your arrogance and smugness needs to come down a notch. We have all sorts on this board, some more peculiar and eccentric than others. As I've said before, baseburners are amazing pieces of engineering. One can't go wrong whether they buy a Glenwood or a Hitzer, the differences are minor and almost inconsequential. The minutiae being discussed here is almost a waste of time. Each type of coal appliance serves a purpose and may be better suited for one application but not another. To each his own.
Well said better than I can do.

So I have patiently taken all of your little slaps in the face, you arrogance, your condescension and your outright accusations.
It's funny that you don't like it when you get a dose of your own medicine.

It's always the same few that continuously attack me personally and it's okay. The moderators seem to also think it's okay as well, but; as soon as I defend myself or dose out a little of what I have put with from you people for YEARS, then everybody has to be polite.

You need to either put up or SHUT UP. Get a base burner and prove me and everyone else wrong. If you get all butt hurt because someone takes you to task then the day care is down the hall.

EarthWindandFire · Post by **EarthWindandFire** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:22 pm

I think by now most of us should be familiar with the differences between antiques, hand-feds, furnaces and boilers.

A modern stove like a Keystoker HF, Hitzer, DS or Harman could be dropped by a 747 from ten thousand feet and still function. Try that with a cast-iron antique and you'll be left with nothing but scrap metal.

Even those of us (un)fortunate enough to live in Connecticut would have people beating down our doors if we were selling an EFM stoker boiler. Glenn Harris would fire up his Dodge and tackle New York City traffic and the crazy drivers on Interstate 95 to buy an EFM. Try selling any other brand of coal stove here in Connecticut and your phone will never ring.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:26 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote: A modern stove like a Keystoker HF, Hitzer, DS or Harman could be dropped by a 747 from ten thousand feet and still function. Try that with a cast-iron antique and you'll be left with nothing but scrap metal.

I'm pretty sure if you dropped a box stove from almost two miles up it would not be operable and would be scrap as well

No offense, but that was a dumb statement

I wonder if a Hitzer salesman could use that analogy?

Post by **Lightning** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:41 pm

scalabro wrote:I most respectfully disagree.

Please don't hate

On cold clear days the chimney will develop a stronger draft at any given exhaust gas temperature than on a warmer low pressure day. So, on the cold day the baro will open more to maintain set stove side draft. On the warm damp days it closes more to maintain stove side draft.

Also with due respect, we can agree to disagree partner, I'm good with that.

So basically yer saying that your house pressure somehow ignores the ambient barometric pressure outside.

I see it like this. Relative pressure drives everything and heat is its energy source. I think you made that clear in the quote above by mentioning "cold and clear" and then "warm and damp". Don't you agree?

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 4:54 pm

We do agree to disagree but I'm correct

Ambient pressure & temperature inside the house will also have an effect.

The colder it is in the house the less the door will open to slow a higher than set point draft. Simply because cold air sucked into the baro slows the draft down more so less of it is needed to drop draft back to the set point.

The warmer it is in the house the more the door will open to slow a higher than set point draft. And this is just reverse of the cold air description above.

EarthWindandFire · Post by **EarthWindandFire** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 6:28 pm

Scott, I wrongly thought an aircraft mechanic like yourself would get the facetiousness of that statement.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 8:04 pm

EarthWindandFire wrote:Scott, I wrongly thought an aircraft mechanic like yourself would get the facetiousness of that statement.

Oops !

My bad

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 8:44 pm

Lightning wrote:
scalabro wrote:I most respectfully disagree.

Please don't hate

On cold clear days the chimney will develop a stronger draft at any given exhaust gas temperature than on a warmer low pressure day. So, on the cold day the baro will open more to maintain set stove side draft. On the warm damp days it closes more to maintain stove side draft.
Also with due respect, we can agree to disagree partner, I'm good with that.

So basically yer saying that your house pressure somehow ignores the ambient barometric pressure outside.

I see it like this. Relative pressure drives everything and heat is its energy source. I think you made that clear in the quote above by mentioning "cold and clear" and then "warm and damp". Don't you agree?

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 8:45 pm

Lightning wrote:
scalabro wrote:I most respectfully disagree.

Please don't hate

On cold clear days the chimney will develop a stronger draft at any given exhaust gas temperature than on a warmer low pressure day. So, on the cold day the baro will open more to maintain set stove side draft. On the warm damp days it closes more to maintain stove side draft.
Also with due respect, we can agree to disagree partner, I'm good with that.

So basically yer saying that your house pressure somehow ignores the ambient barometric pressure outside.

I see it like this. Relative pressure drives everything and heat is its energy source. I think you made that clear in the quote above by mentioning "cold and clear" and then "warm and damp". Don't you agree?

And if the stove not burning it does nothing. It keeps a constant differential pressure from the heat making pressure in the stack less and opens to cut differential as needed. wsherrick in all due respect no one here or anywhere is beyond explain what you claim there are no utterances that were carried down the mountain carved it stone by God. Possibly the preferred audience has no knowledge of chemistry or thermodynamics and just says yes. I tried the house pressure experiment and set the tell tale hand on house pressure then put the barometer outside for 15 minutes more than long enough to change and it didn't. Try it yourself and see. I am open minded and if someone has an idea I am willing to try. I have an open mind if a realistic test offered rather than a 'pronouncement of fact beyond dispute'. Even more ironic is the touting of superior engineering in the early 1900's vs. now and bet the Wright brothers would love a ride in a SR-71 at mach 4 at 90,000 feet yet discount current engineering. There are dozens of well engineered stoves out there that will easily heat an average sized home and easy to maintain and operate by an average person and that defines good engineering. I live in 2016 not 1906 and good engineer is the largest group can get good results with the least effort. Good engineer gets good useable results for the largest group.

Post by **franco b** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 9:14 pm

ddahlgren wrote: I tried the house pressure experiment and set the tell tale hand on house pressure then put the barometer outside for 15 minutes more than long enough to change and it didn't.

How can you expect to see a difference with a unit calibrated in inches of mercury, when we are using a calibration of hundredths of an inch of water, which is far, far more sensitive? A barometric damper measures the pressure both inside the smoke pipe and outside simultaneously and registers the difference with the flap.

As regards engineering of stoves in 1906 compared to today the designers of earlier stoves had a great advantage over a modern designer. Their production was in the millions rather than the thousands of today, so any changes or time spent on experiment averaged out costs over many more units. There were also no costs of UL labs which have the effect of discouraging improvement because of the expense of further testing.

ddahlgren · Post by **ddahlgren** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 9:32 pm

franco b wrote:
ddahlgren wrote: I tried the house pressure experiment and set the tell tale hand on house pressure then put the barometer outside for 15 minutes more than long enough to change and it didn't.
How can you expect to see a difference with a unit calibrated in inches of mercury, when we are using a calibration of hundredths of an inch of water, which is far, far more sensitive? A barometric damper measures the pressure both inside the smoke pipe and outside simultaneously and registers the difference with the flap.

As regards engineering of stoves in 1906 compared to today the designers of earlier stoves had a great advantage over a modern designer. Their production was in the millions rather than the thousands of today, so any changes or time spent on experiment averaged out costs over many more units. There were also no costs of UL labs which have the effect of discouraging improvement because of the expense of further testing.

Sorry still has nothing to do with baro. the units of milli-bar and inches of water work just fine possibly you need a better barometer.

scalabro · Post by **scalabro** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 9:42 pm

ddahlgren wrote:There are dozens of well engineered stoves out there that will easily heat an average sized home and easy to maintain and operate by an average person and that defines good engineering. I live in 2016 not 1906 and good engineer is the largest group can get good results with the least effort. Good engineer gets good useable results for the largest group.

So dumbing down the operation is good engineering?

Not in my book.

It's just marketing to get any simple minded fool the ability to run a coal stove with some success.

Average is just that.....average

Post by **franco b** » Wed. Jan. 13, 2016 9:47 pm

ddahlgren wrote:Sorry still has nothing to do with baro. the units of milli-bar and inches of water work just fine possibly you need a better barometer.

One millibar equals 0.401463078662 inches of water. Put one more zero in front of that to equal one hundredth of an inch of water. 0.04401. You are using a yardstick to try to measure thousandths . Your grasp of these things is just too tenuous for argument.