Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

Coal Jockey · By: **Coal Jockey** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:33 pm

I might point out that "science" is just as much a form of religion as any other organised religious system. In particular, having a "belief" in the "science" behind Darwin's theory on the origin of species demands just as great a degree of faith in the missing links as those who take the Bible as accurate in its portrayals - especially with regards to the life and subsequent trial,execution, burial and resurrection of Christ. Sure - no one alive today was there - we take it on faith that the records we do have are factual and accurate, recorded by firsthand sources.

The way a great many atheistic/agnostic people discuss science is exactly the way a great many people of faith discuss their theology. They use religious methods of discourse, they are adamant that what they believe is true, and deem those who disbelieve to be less intelligent, backwards, and guilty of ruining the world with their notions. Frankly I'm sick of scientists and those who bow before the shrine of science like a god...just as I'm sick of the John Hagee/Kenneth Copeland/Jimmy Swaggart types who claim to be some sort of voice for the majority of Christians. The hucksters of science and the hucksters of religious snakeoil are both tiring.

Matthaus · By: **Matthaus** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:34 pm

Devil5052 wrote:We have a good, intelligent an honest discussion going here. Let's try to keep it unemotional & realize that noone here is attacking anyone personaly or their faith. We are merely asking questions. (If questions are not allowed in a discusson of religeon, than how can any people ever be swayed to be believers?)

The last part of your statement is the interesting part of this discussion, did GOD intend for us to browbeat or persuade others into believing, or are we to prove GOD's existence by our life and how we live it? I personally believe SHE wants us to show by example rather than collect money for more TV stations.

Matthaus · By: **Matthaus** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:38 pm

Good point Coal Jockey, of course what we are discussing is human nature, is not limited to religious organizations. In fact that argument lends some credibility to the point that the exercising of free will is the only way to truly experience GOD.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:38 pm

Matthaus wrote:And as to the question about how does GOD allow bad things to happen to good people? We have humanizing a supreme being that is beyond our comprehension to a large extent, of course we would not understand why things happen.

I thin you hit the nail on the head in re people of faith & those of us that need proof.

First: let me say that if there is a God watching down over us, & loves us, he/she/it would certainly understand why
some of us dont have faith & woiuld not punish us for our lack of understanding when we die. He would understand & forgive us. (Thus the "God Fearing" reason to believe does not work, with me at least)

Second: Most of us spend our lives making decisions based entirely upon scientific or legal evidence, not faith. (I have spent most of my life in federal law enforcement where only hard evidence matters & I can't tell a jury they should find somone guilty based upon faith in my word. Evidence is all that matters.

OK...so now we get into a religeous discussion & someone like me is supposed to throw out all their experience & way of thinking & suddenly have faith, not supported by any evidence? It's just not going to happen.

ktm rider · By: **ktm rider** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:55 pm

Devil5052 wrote:[

First: let me say that if there is a God watching down over us, & loves us, he/she/it would certainly understand why
some of us dont have faith & woiuld not punish us for our lack of understanding when we die. He would understand & forgive us. (Thus the "God Fearing" reason to believe does not work, with me at least)
.

Sorry, this is one area that is pretty clear in the Bible. I can not recite scripture ( I'm not that old

) but i seem to remember the rapture being about believers being saved and non believers doomed to eternal hell.. or something like that...

Coal Jockey · By: **Coal Jockey** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:59 pm

Matthaus wrote:Good point Coal Jockey, of course what we are discussing is human nature, is not limited to religious organizations. In fact that argument lends some credibility to the point that the exercising of free will is the only way to truly experience GOD.

I agree Matthaus. Apart from free will there can be no true knowledge of God, nor true worship, nor true love of God. Only if it is by an act of our will can we be truly participate in the relational dynamics. A lot like marriage in a way - and St. Paul uses this metaphor.

You mention "human nature". Now my question to you is: Believing that there is such a thing as human nature, and that we are somehow - from birth - likely to act and react and think and reason according to some invisible yet consistent set of "mind principles" or "givens" common to all humans; how do you explain the universal need for religion in every organised society from time immemorial up to the present day?

If one takes the belief that we evolved at random and that cultural conditioning and outside influences were the only factors that could determine our "nature", then how can one account for this religious and spiritual universality? It seems that every race and culture has sought to worship something they perceived as "ultimate" or higher than they themsleves were - whether it be the Emperor or Zeus or Yahweh or Aphrodite. From whence cometh this? To the Christian monotheist it all points to a single Originator who implanted this in our very DNA at the outset - and the multiplication of races and peoples has neither diminished or stunted this.
I drive over a bridge every day - I did not build the bridge, I don't know the men who built the bridge, I don't even know how they built the bridge as I'm not a bridge builder by trade. All I know is that the bridge is there, and at some point it was not there. It would be naive for me to believe that the bridge suddenly appeared out of a pile of steel and concrete all on its own. This is a lot like what evolution tries to prove - that bridges build themselves. Frankly it takes a lot less faith to just simply admit that there was a bridgebuilder who took the steel and concrete and built it.I reason my way back to what is unseen or unknown by what IS seen and known. It is this process that makes believers out of unbelievers. You cannot superimpose faith - it must be arrived at with full cognition and mental and emotional or spiritual struggle.

ktm rider · By: **ktm rider** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:04 pm

Coal Jockey wrote: You cannot superimpose faith - it must be arrived at with full cognition and mental and emotional or spiritual struggle

This is true. This is why I said that I would not want to convince Devil5052 to be a believer. I would rather he convince himself...........

All the other stuff Coal Jockey said just flew right over my head!!!!!

Coal Jockey · By: **Coal Jockey** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:07 pm

ktm rider wrote:
Devil5052 wrote:[

First: let me say that if there is a God watching down over us, & loves us, he/she/it would certainly understand why
some of us dont have faith & woiuld not punish us for our lack of understanding when we die. He would understand & forgive us. (Thus the "God Fearing" reason to believe does not work, with me at least)
.

Sorry, this is one area that is pretty clear in the Bible. I can not recite scripture ( I'm not that old ) but i seem to remember the rapture being about believers being saved and non believers doomed to eternal hell.. or something like that...

The "rapture" is a heretical novelty thought up by Mr. Scofield a hundred or so years ago. Forget it.

God judges no one for their lack of understanding. It is always a lack of faith that is under review. Shakespeare has a great line in Twelfth Night about "trying to be a Christian by believing rightly". Whether or not we get our theology down to a nice tidy list or not is neither here nor there. By far the vast majority of Christians for the past 2000 years have had at best only a partial grasp of the theology behind their salvation.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:10 pm

ktm rider wrote:
Devil5052 wrote:[

First: let me say that if there is a God watching down over us, & loves us, he/she/it would certainly understand why
some of us dont have faith & woiuld not punish us for our lack of understanding when we die. He would understand & forgive us. (Thus the "God Fearing" reason to believe does not work, with me at least)
.

Sorry, this is one area that is pretty clear in the Bible. I can not recite scripture ( I'm not that old ) but i seem to remember the rapture being about believers being saved and non believers doomed to eternal hell.. or something like that...

Clear in the Bible or not ktm, it still says to me: "Believe in me or else!" which immediately turns me off & raises a wall between me & any religeon that threatens me that way. (It just raises my natural, human fight or flight reaction & stands in the way of opening my mind to such a religeon.)

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:14 pm

ktm rider wrote:
Coal Jockey wrote: You cannot superimpose faith - it must be arrived at with full cognition and mental and emotional or spiritual struggle

This is true. This is why I said that I would not want to convince Devil5052 to be a believer. I would rather he convince himself........... But I really want/need to be convinced. How can I do it myself if cannot find evidence to convince me?
All the other stuff Coal Jockey said just flew right over my head!!!!!

ROFL....What a great line!! :lol:

:lol:

ktm rider · By: **ktm rider** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 6:32 pm

Devil5052 wrote: But I really want/need to be convinced. How can I do it myself if cannot find evidence to convince me?

This is NOT a question I can answer. You have to find it yourself inside yourself. . Instead of looking for evidence that God does NOT exist, Look for evidence that he DOES exist. Go to church and listen. Not just sit there and pass the time. Actually listen to what is being said. You have to want to believe.
I suggest talking to a priest/pastor/Rev. ( depending on your personal preference) they get these questions all the time. It is not easy and to be honset i am also struggling to make sense of it all.

Wood'nCoal · By: **Wood'nCoal** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:00 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:You mention "human nature". Now my question to you is: Believing that there is such a thing as human nature, and that we are somehow - from birth - likely to act and react and think and reason according to some invisible yet consistent set of "mind principles" or "givens" common to all humans; how do you explain the universal need for religion in every organised society from time immemorial up to the present day?

To try to explain the unexplainable, to find a method to exercise control over the masses without them even knowing it. "Do as we do, follow us or you will spend eternity in the fiery pit of damnation!".

I tend to agree with Matthaus.

Pro-Christianity:

http://www.godsaidmansaid.com/home.asp

Debunking the myths of organized religion:

http://www.unintimidatedpress.com/christianity.htm

Matthaus · By: **Matthaus** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:01 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:[.... my question to you is: Believing that there is such a thing as human nature, and that we are somehow - from birth - likely to act and react and think and reason according to some invisible yet consistent set of "mind principles" or "givens" common to all humans; how do you explain the universal need for religion in every organized society from time immemorial up to the present day?

I see human nature as the outward proof that we have a soul, in other words it is not only from our DNA that we obtain our nature but also from the spirit which fills the vessel of our tissue, blood and bone. As you stated our human condition has all of us yearning for religion, I see it as a chance for reconnection with our spiritual self and a chance to be part of a community (again that longing for reconnection). Taking that thought further, if you consider that we are still connected to our creator through the vale of human awareness it's only natural to seek activities which help us feel that connection.

Since Devil has stated that he needs to be convinced, I would suggest some reading and introspection. If we open your heart and shut off the EGO for a bit there are many authors (including some of those that wrote in the Bible) who have captured what we all seek.

Matthaus · By: **Matthaus** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:11 pm

Devil5052 wrote:.. it still says to me: "Believe in me or else!" which immediately turns me off & raises a wall between me & any religeon that threatens me that way. (It just raises my natural, human fight or flight reaction & stands in the way of opening my mind to such a religeon.)

I think the key word here is mind, the mind is not the organ that needs religion, it is the heart. GOD's love speaks to and through that organ and vibrates in harmony with it. Our mind can get us in trouble because we can't separate the EGO from the mind and often our EGO is afraid to release control.

Devil505 · By: **Devil505** On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:12 pm

Matthaus wrote:
Coal Jockey wrote:[.... my question to you is: Believing that there is such a thing as human nature, and that we are somehow - from birth - likely to act and react and think and reason according to some invisible yet consistent set of "mind principles" or "givens" common to all humans; how do you explain the universal need for religion in every organized society from time immemorial up to the present day?
I see this universal "need" as a universal need to feel safe in an unforgiving & dangerous world, where death is always the end reslut.

I see human nature as the outward proof that we have a soul, in other words it is not only from our DNA that we obtain our nature but also from the spirit which fills the vessel of our tissue, blood and bone. As you stated our human condition has all of us yearning for religion, I see it as a chance for reconnection with our spiritual self and a chance to be part of a community (again that longing for reconnection). Taking that thought further, if you consider that we are still connected to our creator through the vale of human awareness it's only natural to seek activities which help us feel that connection.

Since Devil has stated that he needs to be convinced, I would suggest some reading and introspection. If we open your heart and shut off the EGO for a bit there are many authors (including some of those that wrote in the Bible) who have captured what we all seek.

When I used the word "Need" I meant that I require proof in order to believe anything. It was not meant to convey a "longing" or even necessarily a desire to believe. (I told you...stay away from me if you dont want to be struck by lightening! :lol:

)

Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

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