Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

ktm rider wrote:Devil5052,

Just feeling the need to believe is a good start on your own personal path to salvation . It when you do not feel the need to believe that you are lost. I'm afreaid this forum will have the only chance to save my soul as I feel no "need" to believe. I am willing to keep an open mind here, on this forum, but have no motivation to read any theological works or talk to any clergy. You guys will have the only shot at it, so make it good!



You could also start by changing your screen name!

why 5052 anyway?

Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.

Devil5052 wrote:

Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.

Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?

spc wrote:

Devil5052 wrote:

Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.

Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?

Thomas did not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he felt the wounds from His crucifixion.

Coal Jockey wrote:"I see this universal "need" as a universal need to feel safe in an unforgiving & dangerous world, where death is always the end result."

Okay - you use heavily loaded religious terminology here by your use of the word "unforgiving". Now how on earth would you know what forgiveness is? And how does one determine what is or isn't a "forgiving" person or society? You are getting to deep into my wording........When I say..."an unforgiving & dangerous world"..... I mean nothing more than if I were to drop a hammer right above my foot, the chances of it just "disappearng" before it slams into my toes are pretty small! Put another way: "What you sow is what you will reap" (or however that saying goes )

What is there to be forgiven of? Is there danger in unforgiveness? Is forgiveness somehow essential to the maintenance of a safe and peaceable world? Where do you reckon this undefined sense of general "fear" that you claim is universal finds its root? In fear of death If there is something in us that is somehow fundamentally aware that this fear is real and that safety is somehow dependent on a preemption of the "jungle law" or lex talionis, does it not say to your mind that perhaps somewhere deep in our consciousness there is a DNA-like remembrance of Eden and a similar affinity with some future Eden? Wow!! ........I have a head injury you know! Not sure I fully understand your question, but I don't believe in Eden, if that answers it.
Are you tacitly admitting that this world is royally screwed up? Yes I would say "amen" to that and agree entirely. However, I seem to part ways with you when you somehow blame God for not intervening and stopping the carnage and moral chaos (you referred to some specific events earlier). To my mind it is entirely man's doing. Acknowledging that humans are free to choose to do good or to do evil, the blame can be laid nowhere else but at the feet of wicked men who willingly chose to do evil or to refuse to do good. God reserves judgement on such as these, but, having granted them life and liberty, they are free to pursue their lives as they deem fitting provided they can avoid the human systems of justice that exist. OK....But why would an all powerful, benevolent creator not foresee how we would do evil & change our "blueprint" to make such things impossible, in the best of all possible worlds? (I'm serious) & why create a world where killing other living beings was necessary for your daily sustenance, what is the benefit of Cancer?
This planet is populated with dangerous and unforgiving people - you are correct. The key thing here, however, is not to simply restate the fact, but to think of how this relates to our own life, and then to live as logic seems to indicate. If you want a forgiving society you have to question where the very notions of forgiveness and unforgiveness originated - surely the sense of justice and fairplay is not a random biological juxtapositioning of cells... There is an inevitable finger pointing back further and further to something unseen but real, and to which we must ascribe all our notions of morality and right and wrong and justice, at least at an elemental subconscious level. What is this unseen source?

I don't know what the source is but maybe it's just inborn, natural human decency.......Very good thoughts but it still makes me think of the comedian George Carlin's line that if there is a God & he is benevolent......Then he is also an under-acheiver. (not being flip here, but a little humor never hurts anyone! )

Wood'nCoal wrote:Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?

coalkirk wrote:Devil, Just when things were starting to settle down on the off topic forum, you start a religion thread. You really do have too much time on your hands. Well I usually try to avoid discussions of religion. I was raised in the Methodist church and have to admit i had doubts right from the beginning. To me it's all about how you live your life, treat others etc. Oh and when I die, my soul is going to an abondoned garage in Cleveland. Organized religion has been at the root of just about every horrible thing that happend in history. Man waats to believe there is something greater than himslf, that there is something after this life. I'm in the camp that this is all there is so make the most of it while you are here. Live, laugh, love, and have a beer too. I have no problem with anyone elses religion until it starts to tell me what I can and cannot do. I have the utmost respect for people of faith who actually live it and don't just preach it.

Coal Jockey wrote:" What is this unseen source?