Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:16 pm

Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:19 pm

Someone up above said -- I mean, previously in this thread, not up above as in words from Heaven --
"I am a Believer. To say all religion is bogus and that God does not exist is to say that millions and even billions of people over the centurys are just flat wrong. It is to say that the worlds most brilliant theologians are in fact, incorrect."

Well, I have no problem saying that millions and billions are wrong. [How many of them have the sense to burn coal?] :) As for the brilliant theologians, their logic is impeccable, it's the assumptions they start from that are weak.

And Devil, don't be tempted to give God the credit for bringing you back after your accident. Mark Twain told a story about his wife and child narrowly escaping death when a hired man providentially happened to be in just the right place to stop their runaway horse at the verge of a cliff. When people would exclaim that God must have put the hired man there, Twain would ask, "Well, who set the horse to running?" God can't have the credit unless he will also accept the blame.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: ktm rider On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:30 pm

Devil5052,

Just feeling the need to believe is a good start on your own personal path to salvation . It when you do not feel the need to believe that you are lost.
You could also start by changing your screen name! :D

why 5052 anyway?
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:40 pm

"I see this universal "need" as a universal need to feel safe in an unforgiving & dangerous world, where death is always the end result."

Okay - you use heavily loaded religious terminology here by your use of the word "unforgiving". Now how on earth would you know what forgiveness is? And how does one determine what is or isn't a "forgiving" person or society? What is there to be forgiven of? Is there danger in unforgiveness? Is forgiveness somehow essential to the maintenance of a safe and peaceable world? Where do you reckon this undefined sense of general "fear" that you claim is universal finds its root? If there is something in us that is somehow fundamentally aware that this fear is real and that safety is somehow dependent on a preemption of the "jungle law" or lex talionis, does it not say to your mind that perhaps somewhere deep in our consciousness there is a DNA-like remembrance of Eden and a similar affinity with some future Eden?

Are you tacitly admitting that this world is royally screwed up? I would say "amen" to that and agree entirely. However, I seem to part ways with you when you somehow blame God for not intervening and stopping the carnage and moral chaos (you referred to some specific events earlier). To my mind it is entirely man's doing. Acknowledging that humans are free to choose to do good or to do evil, the blame can be laid nowhere else but at the feet of wicked men who willingly chose to do evil or to refuse to do good. God reserves judgement on such as these, but, having granted them life and liberty, they are free to pursue their lives as they deem fitting provided they can avoid the human systems of justice that exist.

This planet is populated with dangerous and unforgiving people - you are correct. The key thing here, however, is not to simply restate the fact, but to think of how this relates to our own life, and then to live as logic seems to indicate. If you want a forgiving society you have to question where the very notions of forgiveness and unforgiveness originated - surely the sense of justice and fairplay is not a random biological juxtapositioning of cells... There is an inevitable finger pointing back further and further to something unseen but real, and to which we must ascribe all our notions of morality and right and wrong and justice, at least at an elemental subconscious level. What is this unseen source?
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:10 pm

ktm rider wrote:Devil5052,

Just feeling the need to believe is a good start on your own personal path to salvation . It when you do not feel the need to believe that you are lost. I'm afreaid this forum will have the only chance to save my soul as I feel no "need" to believe. I am willing to keep an open mind here, on this forum, but have no motivation to read any theological works or talk to any clergy. You guys will have the only shot at it, so make it good! :lol:



You could also start by changing your screen name! :D

why 5052 anyway?



As much as some probably believe there is some religeous meaning/motive to my selection of Devil5052 as my nickname, the truth is much less interesting:
Years ago I read the book pictured below, & the main character (Jake Grafton I believe) flew A-6 Intruders into North Vietnam during thde Vietnam War. His callsign in the book was "Devil505" & I liked the book so much, I use that callsign as my username on alot of website...This one included. When I tried to logon with Devil505 here, a pop-up said that name was already in use so I selected the closest thing to it! :D
Flight Of The Intruder is a great book, btw & I recommend it highly! (anyone know if I can change my nickname or how?)
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:20 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.


Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:28 pm

Devil5052 wrote:
Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.


Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?
Thomas did not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he felt the wounds from His crucifixion.
spc
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:31 pm

spc wrote:
Devil5052 wrote:
Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,

There once was a man quite like you - needing to be convinced...needing proof...needing hard evidence.

His name is St. Thomas the Apostle.


Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?
Thomas did not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he felt the wounds from His crucifixion.


Hence the term "Doubting Thomas"??
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:37 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:"I see this universal "need" as a universal need to feel safe in an unforgiving & dangerous world, where death is always the end result."

Okay - you use heavily loaded religious terminology here by your use of the word "unforgiving". Now how on earth would you know what forgiveness is? And how does one determine what is or isn't a "forgiving" person or society? You are getting to deep into my wording........When I say..."an unforgiving & dangerous world"..... I mean nothing more than if I were to drop a hammer right above my foot, the chances of it just "disappearng" before it slams into my toes are pretty small! :D Put another way: "What you sow is what you will reap" (or however that saying goes :lol: )

What is there to be forgiven of? Is there danger in unforgiveness? Is forgiveness somehow essential to the maintenance of a safe and peaceable world? Where do you reckon this undefined sense of general "fear" that you claim is universal finds its root? In fear of death If there is something in us that is somehow fundamentally aware that this fear is real and that safety is somehow dependent on a preemption of the "jungle law" or lex talionis, does it not say to your mind that perhaps somewhere deep in our consciousness there is a DNA-like remembrance of Eden and a similar affinity with some future Eden? Wow!! ........I have a head injury you know! Not sure I fully understand your question, but I don't believe in Eden, if that answers it. :)
Are you tacitly admitting that this world is royally screwed up? Yes I would say "amen" to that and agree entirely. However, I seem to part ways with you when you somehow blame God for not intervening and stopping the carnage and moral chaos (you referred to some specific events earlier). To my mind it is entirely man's doing. Acknowledging that humans are free to choose to do good or to do evil, the blame can be laid nowhere else but at the feet of wicked men who willingly chose to do evil or to refuse to do good. God reserves judgement on such as these, but, having granted them life and liberty, they are free to pursue their lives as they deem fitting provided they can avoid the human systems of justice that exist. OK....But why would an all powerful, benevolent creator not foresee how we would do evil & change our "blueprint" to make such things impossible, in the best of all possible worlds? (I'm serious) & why create a world where killing other living beings was necessary for your daily sustenance, what is the benefit of Cancer?
This planet is populated with dangerous and unforgiving people - you are correct. The key thing here, however, is not to simply restate the fact, but to think of how this relates to our own life, and then to live as logic seems to indicate. If you want a forgiving society you have to question where the very notions of forgiveness and unforgiveness originated - surely the sense of justice and fairplay is not a random biological juxtapositioning of cells... There is an inevitable finger pointing back further and further to something unseen but real, and to which we must ascribe all our notions of morality and right and wrong and justice, at least at an elemental subconscious level. What is this unseen source?
I don't know what the source is but maybe it's just inborn, natural human decency.......Very good thoughts but it still makes me think of the comedian George Carlin's line that if there is a God & he is benevolent......Then he is also an under-acheiver. (not being flip here, but a little humor never hurts anyone! :lol: )
Last edited by Devil505 on Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: rberq On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:38 pm

I still don't believe Jesus rose from the dead. Since he isn't here to show me the holes in his hands, how about he write me a message in flaming letters on the side of the building next door? If god wants me to believe, then surely he has the power to convince me. Since he doesn't convince me, I have to conclude he doesn't care, or isn't there in the first place. There's just no way to "logic" myself into believing in God, without giving way too much credence to dubious "evidence". And without some plain evidence, what is "faith" but a willingness (or compulsion) to deceive myself.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:39 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:Sorry Coal Jockey but my ignorance of religeon is great! Who was St. Thomas the Apostle?
Thomas did not believe Jesus rose from the dead until he felt the wounds from His crucifixion.[/quote]

Hence the term "Doubting Thomas"??[/quote]

Wow...You really do learn something nw every day! Never knew that
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:49 pm

The life of Jesus was so significant a turning point in world history that we now live "in the year of our Lord." "anno domini" AD.
The gospels in the New Testament speak of Jesus & His resurrection. It is a great history book that Bible. And America's favorite book. :)


http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080408/lf_nm_life/reading_survey_dc_1;_ylt=AmdfLUQAftcdGhbrpQ9ek6UE1vAI
This link is broken, either the page no longer exists or there is some other issue like a typo.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:17 pm

Devil, Just when things were starting to settle down on the off topic forum, you start a religion thread. :lol: :lol: You really do have too much time on your hands. Well I usually try to avoid discussions of religion. I was raised in the Methodist church and have to admit i had doubts right from the beginning. To me it's all about how you live your life, treat others etc. Oh and when I die, my soul is going to an abondoned garage in Cleveland. Organized religion has been at the root of just about every horrible thing that happend in history. Man waats to believe there is something greater than himslf, that there is something after this life. I'm in the camp that this is all there is so make the most of it while you are here. Live, laugh, love, and have a beer too. I have no problem with anyone elses religion until it starts to tell me what I can and cannot do. I have the utmost respect for people of faith who actually live it and don't just preach it.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:23 pm

coalkirk wrote:Devil, Just when things were starting to settle down on the off topic forum, you start a religion thread. :lol: :lol: You really do have too much time on your hands. Well I usually try to avoid discussions of religion. I was raised in the Methodist church and have to admit i had doubts right from the beginning. To me it's all about how you live your life, treat others etc. Oh and when I die, my soul is going to an abondoned garage in Cleveland. Organized religion has been at the root of just about every horrible thing that happend in history. Man waats to believe there is something greater than himslf, that there is something after this life. I'm in the camp that this is all there is so make the most of it while you are here. Live, laugh, love, and have a beer too. I have no problem with anyone elses religion until it starts to tell me what I can and cannot do. I have the utmost respect for people of faith who actually live it and don't just preach it.


Agreed.
But mine might be going to Canarse.
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: mozz On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:38 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:" What is this unseen source?

It's survival. Man lived alone for the most part. Another came along, tried to steal his food, so he killed him. Another came along and offered him food, so he joined him. Now both of these men had 2 experiences under their belt, 1 bad, 1 good. Now these 2 men are approached by a third, the 2 men look at each other and make a decision. That's how belief came along, by majority vote. If you did what was considered bad, like steal food, chances are you were killed or driven off. So in time, the people had made decisions what was good and what was bad. They had no idea why, it was just because others agreed you better agree also. :?: :?: :?:
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