Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:41 pm

rberq wrote:I still don't believe Jesus rose from the dead.
I am going to assume you don't believe in resurrection at all. How about this, if I showed you a petri dish which looked like what amounted to spit in it & I told you in 9 months that could become a new born baby would you believe me?
spc
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:49 pm

mozz wrote:
Coal Jockey wrote:" What is this unseen source?

It's survival. Man lived alone for the most part. Another came along, tried to steal his food, so he killed him. Another came along and offered him food, so he joined him. Now both of these men had 2 experiences under their belt, 1 bad, 1 good. Now these 2 men are approached by a third, the 2 men look at each other and make a decision. That's how belief came along, by majority vote. If you did what was considered bad, like steal food, chances are you were killed or driven off. So in time, the people had made decisions what was good and what was bad. They had no idea why, it was just because others agreed you better agree also. :?: :?: :?:


And, of course, you have documented proof of that theory?? 8-)
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:51 pm

Matthaus wrote:If the essence that gives us breath is not part of something which cannot die (which by the way has nothing to do whether your brain has allowed the words of men to tell you to believe a certain way about Christ to have eternal life), then explain what it is..... if our soul is not the driving source that makes our tisI beleivesue alive, then what does?


I'm glad I found your post here Matthaus because it leads me to some questions which I hope you have the time & inclination to address. (I saw it earlier & meant to ask but lost it)
Alot of religeous doctrine refers to the "soul" & differentiates it from the brain. I believe (in one of your later posts) you refer to the "heart" as having more to do with our morality than our brains. My wording here is not going to probably be correct or PC as I tend to be a very direct person, but, with that as a caveat, please do not take any offense form what I am about to say/question.......I really mean that.
1. You are reading a post from a guy who has no faith in anything that can't be scientificaly or logicaly proven. I beleive that heart is merely a mechanical pump & has no function other than to distribute blood throughout the body. I don't believe this "Pump" has anything to do with our soul or morality. My evidence is that people who have recieved heart transplants have not exhibited any change in their basic humanity or morality. Am I wrong in this thinking, & if so, why?
2. My belief is that if there is such a thing as a soul, it must reside in the brain as this is the only organ mankind has been unable to transplant, & no surgical procedures involving any other organ have resulted in changes that could be construed to have effected the soul. A few serious questions about the "soul?"
1. What is your understanding as to the physical location of the soul?
2. Does everyone have one?
3. Do animals have one?
4. What happens to your soul after death?
5. Are new souls created at birth or conception?
6. If not, how does one explain population growth? (where do the new souls come from?)

Glad I found your post & hope you find the time to answer some of these. BTW, these questions are open to anyone who wants to answer them.

Thanks,
Dick
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Devil505
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:16 pm

"... OK....But why would an all powerful, benevolent creator not foresee how we would do evil & change our "blueprint" to make such things impossible, in the best of all possible worlds? (I'm serious) & why create a world where killing other living beings was necessary for your daily sustenance, what is the benefit of Cancer?..."

Why would God create anything? How should I know?

In essence, you are wishing that God has made us as programmed robots able to do only good, with no free will to choose between good or evil and between greater and lesser goods? An army of self-replicating clones who render mindless worship to their Mechanic and Technician/Programmer? A world in which love would become meaningless, having no opposite emotions of hate, lust, greed, and selfishness, to stand in sharp contrast?It is the darkness that makes the light so bright and welcome, it is the bitter cold that makes us cherish the heat, it is the pain of lost friendship and broken relationships that gives real lasting love its sweetness and strength.

What is the benefit of sickness or cancer? How then would we appreciate and cherish our health if there were no illness? Is all suffering necessarily a bad thing? I can think of numerous people who have found great insights and personal growth amidst the hell of terminal illness. I know of people who, in watching their friend or relative suffer through terminal illness, have been taught tremendous lessons and found their faith strengthened through simply observing an uncomplaining, even joyful, sufferer. I have an immediate family member in a wheelchair for life, is this "fair", not really if we had our way - but we don't have our way. All we have is the freedom to accept these bad things gracefully and know that though we are perishing slowly and destined for pain in the flesh or mind, it cannot last....that freedom and healing will be ours...as it was originally intended to be. Sickness loses its sting and "edge" if we have no fear of death. The dying process may be horrendous while we're here, it may drag on for years, and indeed we are all dying (how long have you got to live?), but death itself is nothing to be afraid of. I look forward to it. We also have the freedom to resent illness and blame God (whom we don't really believe exists, but he's a handy person to blame...) for letting us get sick, etc.

If we go about creating a petty god in our own image, who caters to our whims and notions of "oughtness", then what have we to fall back on when the physical and intellectual self collapses and our creative and imaginative powers cease? Frankly, I'll take the transcendant God, who, although I may not comprehend even the teeniest bit of who or what He is or the way things really work outside of Time, gives me a lot more confidence and assurance that he can help me than my own made-up pretend god who dances to my tune. I'd rather dance to His - even when the melody is confusing and the steps difficult...

Until we learn to suffer we cannot know true joy. Until we are prepared to die we cannot truly live. It is only the presence of despair that makes hope such a precious thing to have.
Coal Jockey
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Newmac
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:24 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:"... OK....But why would an all powerful, benevolent creator not foresee how we would do evil & change our "blueprint" to make such things impossible, in the best of all possible worlds? (I'm serious) & why create a world where killing other living beings was necessary for your daily sustenance, what is the benefit of Cancer?..."

Why would God create anything? How should I know?

In essence, you are wishing that God has made us as programmed robots able to do only good, with no free will to choose between good or evil and between greater and lesser goods? An army of self-replicating clones who render mindless worship to their Mechanic and Technician/Programmer? A world in which love would become meaningless, having no opposite emotions of hate, lust, greed, and selfishness, to stand in sharp contrast?It is the darkness that makes the light so bright and welcome, it is the bitter cold that makes us cherish the heat, it is the pain of lost friendship and broken relationships that gives real lasting love its sweetness and strength.

What is the benefit of sickness or cancer? How then would we appreciate and cherish our health if there were no illness? Is all suffering necessarily a bad thing? I can think of numerous people who have found great insights and personal growth amidst the hell of terminal illness. I know of people who, in watching their friend or relative suffer through terminal illness, have been taught tremendous lessons and found their faith strengthened through simply observing an uncomplaining, even joyful, sufferer. I have an immediate family member in a wheelchair for life, is this "fair", not really if we had our way - but we don't have our way. All we have is the freedom to accept these bad things gracefully and know that though we are perishing slowly and destined for pain in the flesh or mind, it cannot last....that freedom and healing will be ours...as it was originally intended to be. Sickness loses its sting and "edge" if we have no fear of death. The dying process may be horrendous while we're here, it may drag on for years, and indeed we are all dying (how long have you got to live?), but death itself is nothing to be afraid of. I look forward to it. We also have the freedom to resent illness and blame God (whom we don't really believe exists, but he's a handy person to blame...) for letting us get sick, etc.

If we go about creating a petty god in our own image, who caters to our whims and notions of "oughtness", then what have we to fall back on when the physical and intellectual self collapses and our creative and imaginative powers cease? Frankly, I'll take the transcendant God, who, although I may not comprehend even the teeniest bit of who or what He is or the way things really work outside of Time, gives me a lot more confidence and assurance that he can help me than my own made-up pretend god who dances to my tune. I'd rather dance to His - even when the melody is confusing and the steps difficult...

Until we learn to suffer we cannot know true joy. Until we are prepared to die we cannot truly live. It is only the presence of despair that makes hope such a precious thing to have.



Wow!!...Your post is very thought provocking & I will need to read it a number of times b4 I can hope to fully understand it, but I wanted to respond quickly to let you know that I read it, am thinking about it & taking my time re-reading it. I am truly amazed at the wisdom available on this forum on almost any subject!
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:43 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:"... OK....But why would an all powerful, benevolent creator not foresee how we would do evil & change our "blueprint" to make such things impossible, in the best of all possible worlds? (I'm serious) & why create a world where killing other living beings was necessary for your daily sustenance, what is the benefit of Cancer?..."

Why would God create anything? How should I know?

In essence, you are wishing that God has made us as programmed robots able to do only good, with no free will to choose between good or evil and between greater and lesser goods? An army of self-replicating clones who render mindless worship to their Mechanic and Technician/Programmer? A world in which love would become meaningless, having no opposite emotions of hate, lust, greed, and selfishness, to stand in sharp contrast?It is the darkness that makes the light so bright and welcome, it is the bitter cold that makes us cherish the heat, it is the pain of lost friendship and broken relationships that gives real lasting love its sweetness and strength. OK......some excellent arguments that are giving me pause.....

What is the benefit of sickness or cancer? How then would we appreciate and cherish our health if there were no illness? Is all suffering necessarily a bad thing? I can think of numerous people who have found great insights and personal growth amidst the hell of terminal illness. I know of people who, in watching their friend or relative suffer through terminal illness, have been taught tremendous lessons and found their faith strengthened through simply observing an uncomplaining, even joyful, sufferer. I have an immediate family member in a wheelchair for life, is this "fair", not really if we had our way - but we don't have our way. All we have is the freedom to accept these bad things gracefully and know that though we are perishing slowly and destined for pain in the flesh or mind, it cannot last....that freedom and healing will be ours...as it was originally intended to be. Sickness loses its sting and "edge" if we have no fear of death. ...But how do you convince someone like me that this is not just wishfull thinking? We are programmed to live our lives based on precieved cause & effect & proof we can see...feel...touch. Why should I believe you? The dying process may be horrendous while we're here, it may drag on for years, and indeed we are all dying (how long have you got to live?), but death itself is nothing to be afraid of. I look forward to it. A huge chance to take based upon nothing but faith with no supporting evidence. We also have the freedom to resent illness and blame God (whom we don't really believe exists, but he's a handy person to blame...) for letting us get sick, etc. LOL...a good & fair point!

If we go about creating a petty god in our own image, who caters to our whims and notions of "oughtness", then what have we to fall back on when the physical and intellectual self collapses and our creative and imaginative powers cease? ...Don't follow you here?? Frankly, I'll take the transcendant God, who, although I may not comprehend even the teeniest bit of who or what He is or the way things really work outside of Time, gives me a lot more confidence and assurance that he can help me than my own made-up pretend god who dances to my tune. I'd rather dance to His - even when the melody is confusing and the steps difficult...I dislike confusion & am not a good dancer! (just kidding here...I like the way you word things)
Until we learn to suffer we cannot know true joy. Until we are prepared to die we cannot truly live. It is only the presence of despair that makes hope such a precious thing to have.
...Thought provoking!
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:57 pm

spc wrote:
rberq wrote:I still don't believe Jesus rose from the dead.
I am going to assume you don't believe in resurrection at all. How about this, if I showed you a petri dish which looked like what amounted to spit in it & I told you in 9 months that could become a new born baby would you believe me?



If I understand you as saying that the life in the petri dish will be a resurected soul, then where do new souls come from..... ie population growth?
Am I following your meaning here?
Devil505
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:31 pm

1. You are reading a post from a guy who has no faith in anything that can't be scientificaly or logicaly proven. I beleive that heart is merely a mechical pump & has no function other than to distribute blood throughout the body. I don't believe this "Pump" has anything to do with our soul or morality. My evidence is that people who have recieved heart transplants have not exhibited any change in their basic humanity or morality. Am I wrong in this thinking, & if so, why?
2. My belief is that if there is such a thing as a soul, it must reside in the brain as this is the only organ mankind has been unable to transplant, & no surgical procedures involving any other organ have resluted in changes that could be construed to have effected the soul. A few serious questions about the "soul?"
1. What is your understanding as to the physical location of the soul?
2. Does everyone have one?
3. Do animals have one?
4. What happens to your soul after death?
5. Are new souls created at birth or conception?
6. If not, how does one explain population growth? (where do the new souls come from?)

Glad I found your post & hope you find the time to answer some of these. BTW, these questions are open to anyone who wants to answer them.

Thanks,
Dick
---------------------------------------------
To understand the matter it is important to understand something about the "created order of things"; more specifically created beings. In the class of created beings we have two that we know about: angels and humans. Angels are categorised according to function and rank: angel, archangel, cherubim, seraphim. Humans are male and female. Angels are pure spirits, able to assume visible form, witness the appearances throughout the Bible, generally taking the form of young men. Humans, are "embodied spirits", essentially spirits wrapped in flesh, and subject to the afflictions that all flesh is subject to - in this way we share some things with the lower created orders of living things on earth. However, creation of a human life is NOT God's decision; it is the conscious decision of a husband and wife to undertake this solemn endeavour. The man and woman make this decision by their actions, assuming the will is actively involved in the process. Having made this decision by their actions, they take upon themselves the obligation and responsibility to nurture this life they have created. God grants this new life in response to the couple's decision and action (or not grant as the case may be) and the embryo is endowed with what I'd call the "breath of life", or a spirit that is imperishable - it will never die. This is why the Christian pro-lifers oppose abortion by the way.... Another word for spirit I suppose is "soul". Does this not place a big heavy trip on the whole contraception issue? In effect, the couple, or just the woman, is saying "No" to God's involvement in her life. Anyhow.

You ask some good questions. Again, the thing to remember is that we are embodied spirits, that our flesh is simply the expression and habitation for the real "us" living in this body. To refer to the soul as "residing" in one specific part of the body is going a bit beyond what can be proven or disproven. I like to refer to the "mind", we speak of "changing our mind" not our brain. There is a spirit within each human that animates us and drives us. It is the us that feels, thinks, reasons, argues, emotes, and rejoices. It is the us that has dreams and plans for the future, it is the us that falls in love, it is the us that bears a grudge. It is the inner us that will continue to exist forever long after our flesh decays in the grave or is incinerated. Everyone has a soul. Even legal documents, at least the ones I've seen, still speak of a certain number of "souls" residing within a given area, or some such terminology. Animals do not have souls as we do - which ought to lay on us the burden of giving them the happiest life we are capable of giving them NOW and treating them well....

What happens to the soul after death? How long have you got??? :roll:

Depends... Are you wanting to know where your soul is going?

Prior to the Crucifixion of Jesus, the world existed under what we call the "Old Covenant", the most common belief was essentially what you believe - after death is nothingness - and the Sadducees still believed that right into Jesus' day. Even the Psalms hint that this was a common thought - that in the grave was only darkness and nothing...although they are not consistent in this regard as a perusal will show. The souls of those who died under the Old Covenant went to a compartmentalised "middle place" we call Sheol - the place of departed spirits. The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus illustrates this - the righteous dead in one part (Paradise) and the wicked dead in another (Hades), and communication being possible, but not transmigration. A Holding cell we might say.
At the time of the crucifixion we are told that Jesus descended to these "lower parts" and for three days proclaimed the news that He had come and fulfilled the Old Covenant - the waiting was over. The righteous dead would have rejoiced, and it is quite possible that a number of the "wicked" (I use the term loosely) dead - those who had simply perished without ever knowing anything of God had a fair chance to respond to this preaching and accept Jesus' message. Kind of like the thief on the cross "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise". At Jesus' resurrection the righteous dead were left waiting in hope with fresh assurance of future resurrection, although I believe that the Holy Spirit is also present with these souls and is even now working on each one preparing it for eternity after the last judgement and a reuniuon in a resurrected body. This preparation I refer to as Purgatory, a cleansing of the lingering selfishness and pride, the haughtiness, the carelessness of our life must be weeded out and the horror of our sins made apparent to effect in us a true and contrite spirit ready for the pure worship of heaven. The wicked dead were left waiting in misery knowing that nothing but judgement awaited them for their rejection of Jesus.
As far as I know, things are much the same now as then. The souls of the righteous dead having been baptised and embracing Jesus and His message are carried to the middle place - although the Church has taught that it is possible for some souls to suffer and become holy by grace in this life, and not need the refining or purifying of Purgatory. (Whatever you think, forget the stupid idea of actual "burning" in Purgatory - it is spiritual purgation and healing that is taking place, and the suffering is spiritual - we are not embodied in purgatory - our bodies are in the coffin in the cemetery!) These holy men and women are canonised as Saints, and deemed to be in the very presence of God. Something like Enoch and Elijah who were "caught up" and spared death in the normal way (although don't quote me on that if you're talking with the Holy Father in the near future...). The souls of the wicked dead - those who die unbaptised having rejected Jesus Christ and His message - are taken to Hades to join the rest of the suffering souls waiting for the last judgement. We know little about their state.
At the end of time, there will be a general resurrection. The souls of the righteous will be united with a "glorified" body, resembling their former one, but this time NOT subject to the afflictions that destroy the flesh now. They will remain in this glorified state forever. The souls of the wicked dead will also receive a body - quite likely similar to that of the righteous, but I'm not sure - and these will be judged "every man according to their works" Rev 20:13. This judgement is final and their destination is separation from God, without hope, endless despair, God says "have it your way, I offered you life and you chose death"...the final Hell.
So it depends.

Population growth is simple biology. What makes sex so serious is the belief that God is working with the couple and as they do their created "part" He is doing His in granting this new life a soul to be nurtured and developed. This is why the stuck up Christians oppose abortion and contraception, and insist on "one man and one woman for as long as they both shall live" - we must say "yes" to God if we truly desire a fulfilled and meaningful existence here on earth. To focus solely upon our own little selves is to miss the whole point of living...which is to give, to be creative, to be fruitful, to be artistic, to help our fellowman, to live our lives in a morally responsible way that respects both the creation and the Creator, to worship this Creator as grateful creatures capable of expressing our thankfulness for life.
Coal Jockey
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: pret On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:03 am

Well said Coal Jockey... I too have struggled with questions - tensions throughout my 35 years of life. I have come to understand pain and suffering as you have just delineated. If indeed there is a God/Creator... then in order for love to exist, so must choice. To choose love means that the choice for hate must also exist. One cannot have one without the other, just as one cannot have light without darkness. This only speaks to evil done to the world by humanity. Calamity is a different animal. I don't understand it all. I am constantly looking for ways to rectify the theoretical tension within me regarding many of these issues. I, like many folks, have had experiences that convince me of the existence of a very real, full of life, God/Creator. I worship because I believe he is... I live my life the best I know how in service to the God I believe made me... and knows me. Aside from organized religion (not a big fan) - this is the reality I wakeup to every morning - invigorated and hopeful for what the day will bring. I do not worship because my life is easy or because I fear being 'wrong'. I worship out of sincere gratitude for life, for breath, for love.
pret
 

Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: e.alleg On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:34 am

I believe in god, and not because I'm a bitter rural citizen clinging to god and guns after the factory closed 25 years ago. bumper sticker: JESUS LOVES YOU! everyone else thinks your an *censored*.
e.alleg
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:01 am

Well I was afraid to stick my head into this thread bearing in mind some of the other threads, must be miracle or something. :lol:
Richard S.
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:13 am

Richard S. wrote:Well I was afraid to stick my head into this thread bearing in mind some of the other threads, must be miracle or something. :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Devil505
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Harman
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:43 am

Coal Jockey wrote:1. You are reading a post from a guy who has no faith in anything that can't be scientifically or logically proven. I believe that heart is merely a mechanical pump & has no function other than to distribute blood throughout the body. I don't believe this "Pump" has anything to do with our soul or morality. My evidence is that people who have received heart transplants have not exhibited any change in their basic humanity or morality. Am I wrong in this thinking, & if so, why?
2. My belief is that if there is such a thing as a soul, it must reside in the brain as this is the only organ mankind has been unable to transplant, & no surgical procedures involving any other organ have resulted in changes that could be construed to have effected the soul. A few serious questions about the "soul?"
1. What is your understanding as to the physical location of the soul?
2. Does everyone have one?
3. Do animals have one?
4. What happens to your soul after death?
5. Are new souls created at birth or conception?
6. If not, how does one explain population growth? (where do the new souls come from?)

Glad I found your post & hope you find the time to answer some of these. BTW, these questions are open to anyone who wants to answer them.

Thanks,
Dick
---------------------------------------------
To understand the matter it is important to understand something about the "created order of things"; more specifically created beings. In the class of created beings we have two that we know about: angels and humans. Angels are categorised according to function and rank: angel, archangel, cherubim, seraphim. Humans are male and female. Angels are pure spirits, able to assume visible form, witness the appearances throughout the Bible, generally taking the form of young men. Humans, are "embodied spirits", essentially spirits wrapped in flesh, and subject to the afflictions that all flesh is subject to - in this way we share some things with the lower created orders of living things on earth. However, creation of a human life is NOT God's decision; it is the conscious decision of a husband and wife to undertake this solemn endeavour. The man and woman make this decision by their actions, assuming the will is actively involved in the process. Having made this decision by their actions, they take upon themselves the obligation and responsibility to nurture this life they have created. God grants this new life in response to the couple's decision and action (or not grant as the case may be) and the embryo is endowed with what I'd call the "breath of life", or a spirit that is imperishable - it will never die. This is why the Christian pro-lifers oppose abortion by the way.... Another word for spirit I suppose is "soul". Does this not place a big heavy trip on the whole contraception issue? In effect, the couple, or just the woman, is saying "No" to God's involvement in her life. Anyhow. How do you know this stuff is really true or not just a story created by man to ease his mind? (why are you so Faithfull?)
You ask some good questions. Again, the thing to remember is that we are embodied spirits, that our flesh is simply the expression and habitation for the real "us" living in this body. To refer to the soul as "residing" in one specific part of the body is going a bit beyond what can be proven or disproven. I like to refer to the "mind", we speak of "changing our mind" not our brain. There is a spirit within each human that animates us and drives us. It is the us that feels, thinks, reasons, argues, emotes, and rejoices. It is the us that has dreams and plans for the future, it is the us that falls in love, it is the us that bears a grudge. It is the inner us that will continue to exist forever long after our flesh decays in the grave or is incinerated. Everyone has a soul. Even legal documents, at least the ones I've seen, still speak of a certain number of "souls" residing within a given area, or some such terminology. Animals do not have souls as we do - which ought to lay on us the burden of giving them the happiest life we are capable of giving them NOW and treating them well....If animals don't have souls, why did God create them? (just for our sustenance?) and what diferentiates us (man) from the animals in God's eye that makes only us worthy of being given a soul?
What happens to the soul after death? How long have you got??? :roll:

Depends... Are you wanting to know where your soul is going?

Prior to the Crucifixion of Jesus, the world existed under what we call the "Old Covenant", the most common belief was essentially what you believe - after death is nothingness - and the Sadducees still believed that right into Jesus' day. Even the Psalms hint that this was a common thought - that in the grave was only darkness and nothing...although they are not consistent in this regard as a perusal will show. The souls of those who died under the Old Covenant went to a compartmentalised "middle place" we call Sheol - the place of departed spirits. The story of the Rich Man and Lazarus illustrates this - the righteous dead in one part (Paradise) and the wicked dead in another (Hades), and communication being possible, but not transmigration. A Holding cell we might say.
At the time of the crucifixion we are told that Jesus descended to these "lower parts" and for three days proclaimed the news that He had come and fulfilled the Old Covenant - the waiting was over. The righteous dead would have rejoiced, and it is quite possible that a number of the "wicked" (I use the term loosely) dead - those who had simply perished without ever knowing anything of God had a fair chance to respond to this preaching and accept Jesus' message. Kind of like the thief on the cross "this day thou shalt be with me in paradise". At Jesus' resurrection the righteous dead were left waiting in hope with fresh assurance of future resurrection, although I believe that the Holy Spirit is also present with these souls and is even now working on each one preparing it for eternity after the last judgement and a reuniuon in a resurrected body. This preparation I refer to as Purgatory, a cleansing of the lingering selfishness and pride, the haughtiness, the carelessness of our life must be weeded out and the horror of our sins made apparent to effect in us a true and contrite spirit ready for the pure worship of heaven. The wicked dead were left waiting in misery knowing that nothing but judgement awaited them for their rejection of Jesus.
As far as I know, things are much the same now as then. The souls of the righteous dead having been baptised and embracing Jesus and His message are carried to the middle place - although the Church has taught that it is possible for some souls to suffer and become holy by grace in this life, and not need the refining or purifying of Purgatory. (Whatever you think, forget the stupid idea of actual "burning" in Purgatory - it is spiritual purgation and healing that is taking place, and the suffering is spiritual - we are not embodied in purgatory - our bodies are in the coffin in the cemetery!) These holy men and women are canonised as Saints, and deemed to be in the very presence of God. Something like Enoch and Elijah who were "caught up" and spared death in the normal way (although don't quote me on that if you're talking with the Holy Father in the near future...). The souls of the wicked dead - those who die unbaptised having rejected Jesus Christ and His message - are taken to Hades to join the rest of the suffering souls waiting for the last judgement. We know little about their state.
At the end of time, there will be a general resurrection. The souls of the righteous will be united with a "glorified" body, resembling their former one, but this time NOT subject to the afflictions that destroy the flesh now. They will remain in this glorified state forever. The souls of the wicked dead will also receive a body - quite likely similar to that of the righteous, but I'm not sure - and these will be judged "every man according to their works" Rev 20:13. This judgement is final and their destination is separation from God, without hope, endless despair, God says "have it your way, I offered you life and you chose death"...the final Hell. If being baptised is necessary to accept Jesus & be resurrected, are non-Christians (like Jews) seen as rejecting God & therefore of an inferior or evil order, not to be resurected or have an afterlife? If so, do they have a soul & what was God's purpose in creating them? What purpose do we (Jews) serve? ( & dont say to open banks & make good comedians! :lol: )So it depends.

Population growth is simple biology. What makes sex so serious is the belief that God is working with the couple and as they do their created "part" He is doing His in granting this new life a soul to be nurtured and developed. This is why the stuck up Christians oppose abortion and contraception, and insist on "one man and one woman for as long as they both shall live" - we must say "yes" to God if we truly desire a fulfilled and meaningful existence here on earth. To focus solely upon our own little selves is to miss the whole point of living...which is to give, to be creative, to be fruitful, to be artistic, to help our fellowman, to live our lives in a morally responsible way that respects both the creation and the Creator, to worship this Creator as grateful creatures capable of expressing our thankfulness for life.



You are a good teacher with a very tough subject and unruly students here. :D
Let me throw this thought out to you:

How do you know that what we are in, right now, is not the Hell you speak of? Our world has much more pain & suffering than happiness, IMO. We are given the ultimate sentence of death at birth. Only our "sentences" (length of time to serve) vary, but we are all born on "Death Row" through no fault of our own. We must all go through the anguish of losing loved ones to a fate that appears cruel & beyond our ability to understand. Killing is the only way to survive here; Disease & starvation are much more prevalent than good health & having plenty to eat; the moment enforced order (police) break down, we revert back to vicious animals, etc, etc, etc. It seems to me that if I were a "Supreme Being" that I could create a better world based on other things......Which leads me back to my question: How do you have such faith that this is not Hell?

Like Coalkirk said yesterday, Cheery little thought.....I think I'll go aerate my lawn now! :lol: :lol:
Last edited by Devil505 on Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
Devil505
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:10 am

pret wrote:Well said Coal Jockey... I too have struggled with questions - tensions throughout my 35 years of life. I have come to understand pain and suffering as you have just delineated. If indeed there is a God/Creator... then in order for love to exist, so must choice. To choose love means that the choice for hate must also exist. One cannot have one without the other, just as one cannot have light without darkness. This only speaks to evil done to the world by humanity. Calamity is a different animal. I don't understand it all. I am constantly looking for ways to rectify the theoretical tension within me regarding many of these issues. I, like many folks, have had experiences that convince me of the existence of a very real, full of life, God/Creator. I worship because I believe he is... I live my life the best I know how in service to the God I believe made me... and knows me. Aside from organized religion (not a big fan) - this is the reality I wakeup to every morning - invigorated and hopeful for what the day will bring. I do not worship because my life is easy or because I fear being 'wrong'. I worship out of sincere gratitude for life, for breath, for love.


While I can't say I believe like you do, I am again taken-back by the depth of wisdom/thoughtfullness on this forum!
Devil505
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:10 am

Devil5052,
I would encourage you to reread my posts.Jew or Gentile is irrelevant, we are all of the same order or rank - there is no greater or lesser human. Again, it all comes down to "faith" for determining whether or not we receive the grace necessary for salvation. I haven't time to reply further at any length, Just let me leave you with this:

Credo ut intelligam. I believe in order that I may know... St. Anselm. Faith precedes learning. "he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him..."

Gotta go to work.
Coal Jockey
 
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