Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:18 am

Coal Jockey wrote:Devil5052,
I would encourage you to reread my posts.Jew or Gentile is irrelevant, we are all of the same order or rank - there is no greater or lesser human. Again, it all comes down to "faith" for determining whether or not we receive the grace necessary for salvation. I haven't time to reply further at any length, Just let me leave you with this:

Credo ut intelligam. I believe in order that I may know... St. Anselm. Faith precedes learning. "he that cometh to God must believe that He is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him..."

Gotta go to work.


Maybe when you return from work you can address my question. I was specifically asking you about this portion of one of your posts..."The souls of the wicked dead - those who die unbaptised having rejected Jesus Christ and His message - are taken to Hades to join the rest of the suffering souls waiting for the last judgement. We know little about their state."....
Which seems to relegate the "unbaptised" to Hades?
BTW, the quotes you left me with are so high above my head that I am going to find my ladder to see if I can grab them! :D
(needed an excuse to clean out the shop anyway...Let's see.......Where did I put that ladder?) :help2:
Devil505
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 7:30 am

"In essence, you are wishing that God has made us as programmed robots able to do only good, with no free will to choose between good or evil and between greater and lesser goods?"

Yes, that would have been nice. And since god is all powerful, he could have given us the illusion of free will, if he thought we would miss it. (Of course, some argue that free will IS just an illusion, but that's too deep for me.)
rberq
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Matthaus On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 8:01 am

WOW! I missed a lot last night, lots of great posts and thoughts have been entered here. I bet Richard was kinda nervous to open this thread after seeing how quickly it grew! :lol: :lol:

First off I forgot to qualify something yesterday, I'm full of *censored*, if you don't believe it just ask anyone that knows me, especially my family. I try not to take myself too seriously but eventually my true colors show and my tendency for adhering to the statement "ask me what time it is and I'll tell you how to build a watch" emerges.

There are lots of carefully conceived and complicated explanations of where souls come from, and how angels are part of a hierarchy that leads to GOD (and many, many other variations), I choose to believe that all of that is the humanization of GOD that occurs so men can be manipulated to do the churches bidding (or Mosque or whatever other building has been erected in GOD's name). I choose to believe that the soul is the part that is never separate from GOD, it is GOD in us, we can't do "evil" and lose that connection, nor do "good" and improve it. The soul is not in a physical location in our body because it isn't physical. Every living thing has to have that essence, however the less evolved human forms (yeah that's right I said it, evolution, believe in it :lol: ) are more separated from awareness of GOD. An animal is not a thinking and fully aware being, it operates on instinct for the most part, the petri dish that might spawn life has no awareness of GOD until it forms into the Human form with a full compliment of the miracle that is the human form. In a sense that defines God's ability to have a human experience.

I believe souls are not manufactured, there are not condemned souls, new souls or any other kind of difference in them, we cannot conceive of the concept of a soul because it is not from our level of awareness of GOD. Our soul reunites upon our death and hence the smiles and peace, when birth occurs that piece of GOD is reunited with this human experience which can be ugly or beautiful, not always our choice initially, but in the end it is always our choice that determines beautiful or ugly. I believe in the resurrection of Christ, I believe in Buddah, I believe in Mohamed, I believe in the Jewish version of GOD, I believe in Krishna, and so on. What I don't believe in is the right of church leaders to control my spiritual life. I go to church when I feel moved to do so, I was raised in the Methodist church and was even a church youth group leader. I believe in the possibility for a strong community of church believers that support each other and create a spiritual life for themselves and others.

Devil I believe you said you don't need to believe in GOD you are just looking for some tangible proof, well then this discussion is a good jumping off point, reading books is another great way to explore that desire to reach a better understanding. I recommend "Conversation with God" (there are also several other books by him including sequelsl to the first) by Neil Donald Walsh, it is considered very secular by many but is quite thought provoking. There are lots of other great and beautiful writings that can feed your soul and meet the basic human striving for meaning in life.

My simple thought and feeling about GOD is that I see Her in everything around me, I can't help but be brought to tears by some of the beauty in nature and human interaction. I feel that each person must find what is true to them and not allow any person to intervene in each person's own process for realizing GOD.

Will check back in tonight and read all the wonderful inputs to this thread, is quite nice to see a thought provoking, open and civil discussion in this section of the forum. Right now I have to go finish the taxes and do some work. :)
Matthaus
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 9:30 am

You've all exceeded my attention span for things supernatural by a factor of at least 10.

I hope we can archive this thread in case I ever contract a dread malady and need to study it in pursuit of some final "inner peace." ;)
stockingfull
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:09 pm

spc
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:27 pm

spc wrote:Even Ted Turner is coming around.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/hea ... htm?csp=34


Ever heard of a deathbed conversion? :lol:
stockingfull
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:31 pm

stockingfull wrote:
spc wrote:Even Ted Turner is coming around.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/hea ... htm?csp=34


Ever heard of a deathbed conversion? :lol:
He's dying?
spc
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Matthaus On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:35 pm

spc wrote:He's dying?


Aren't we all? Just a matter of our relative position along the the space continuum. :lol:
Matthaus
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:41 pm

Is he on his deathbed? ;)
spc
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Matthaus On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:44 pm

Just funnin ya SPC, I think he is gonna be with us for some time now.... too ornery to die just yet. ;)
Matthaus
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line WL110 Dual Fuel, natural gas
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Leisure Line Lil' Heater (rental house)
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 4:46 pm

Matthaus wrote:
spc wrote:He's dying?


Aren't we all? Just a matter of our relative position along the the space continuum. :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Devil505
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: spc On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:22 pm

Matthaus wrote:
spc wrote:
Matthaus wrote:He's dying?


Aren't we all? Just a matter of our relative position along the the space continuum. :lol:
Just funnin ya SPC, I think he is gonna be with us for some time now.... too ornery to die just yet. ;)
The funny thing is, as I was typing it I knew someone going to bring that up. :lol:
spc
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: rberq On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 5:58 pm

rberq wrote: I still don't believe Jesus rose from the dead.

spc replied: I am going to assume you don't believe in resurrection at all. How about this, if I showed you a petri dish which looked like what amounted to spit in it & I told you in 9 months that could become a new born baby would you believe me?

rberq responds: Huh? What’s that got to do with the price of eggs? Are you saying that’s what in vitro fertilization looks like? In that case, sure, I believe it could become a baby. But I’d hardly call it resurrection.
rberq
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:13 pm

"Maybe when you return from work you can address my question. I was specifically asking you about this portion of one of your posts..."The souls of the wicked dead - those who die unbaptised having rejected Jesus Christ and His message - are taken to Hades to join the rest of the suffering souls waiting for the last judgement. We know little about their state."....
Which seems to relegate the "unbaptised" to Hades?.."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Devil5052,
I can't continue this thread in circular fashion. So let me give you the simple answer:

The Bible says so. And the Church has lent the full weight of Her authority to the Bible since the canon was finalised, and hence is required to be believed by every Christian. So, the Bible says so, and the Church says so. Taking, then, the position of humility and being a learner, I have submitted my own private judgments to the teachings of Mother Church and found to my surprise, that what She teaches actually makes logical sense, and that doctrinally Her teaching constitutes a cohesive and comprehensive whole. I have learnt it bit by bit st random, but over time the bits and parts all begin falling into place. This is what I mean by "faith precedes understanding" (credo ut intelligam" - Latin) Apart from the humility of surrendering our self will and preconceived ideas and canned arguments, there can be no forward progress. If it is merely an intellectual inquiry you wish for, then I doubt very much that any of this will click for you. I have other things to do - not that I dislike this thread, it is quite a useful exercise for myself in typing and dredging this stuff up, but I think it serves little purpose under the present circumstances. I believe, I believe it all, I have committed myself to Christ and His Church, and have no reservations. It is a choice I have made to believe - not based on full comprehension, but based on an assured faith that God is true and faithful, and will never give a stone to those who ask bread.
Coal Jockey
 
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Re: Did God Create Man Or Did Man Create God?

PostBy: Devil505 On: Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:33 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:"Maybe when you return from work you can address my question. I was specifically asking you about this portion of one of your posts..."The souls of the wicked dead - those who die unbaptised having rejected Jesus Christ and His message - are taken to Hades to join the rest of the suffering souls waiting for the last judgement. We know little about their state."....
Which seems to relegate the "unbaptised" to Hades?.."
-----------------------------------------------------------

Devil5052,
I can't continue this thread in circular fashion. So let me give you the simple answer:

The Bible says so. And the Church has lent the full weight of Her authority to the Bible since the canon was finalised, and hence is required to be believed by every Christian. So, the Bible says so, and the Church says so. Taking, then, the position of humility and being a learner, I have submitted my own private judgments to the teachings of Mother Church and found to my surprise, that what She teaches actually makes logical sense, and that doctrinally Her teaching constitutes a cohesive and comprehensive whole. I have learnt it bit by bit st random, but over time the bits and parts all begin falling into place. This is what I mean by "faith precedes understanding" (credo ut intelligam" - Latin) Apart from the humility of surrendering our self will and preconceived ideas and canned arguments, there can be no forward progress. If it is merely an intellectual inquiry you wish for, then I doubt very much that any of this will click for you. I have other things to do - not that I dislike this thread, it is quite a useful exercise for myself in typing and dredging this stuff up, but I think it serves little purpose under the present circumstances. I believe, I believe it all, I have committed myself to Christ and His Church, and have no reservations. It is a choice I have made to believe - not based on full comprehension, but based on an assured faith that God is true and faithful, and will never give a stone to those who ask bread.




I appreciate your time, knowledge & faith in re this subject but have never pretended that what I was seeking was anything more than the "intellectual inquiry" you mentioned above. I have never really understood why people of faith, such as yourself, have such strong faith without requiring the "evidence" that I view as essential. You have enlightened me a bit, as to why people may believe the way you do, but I still have no "need" to pursue this beyond the academic exercise we are performing here. You have supplied some answers, but I have many more serious questions than you, or probably anyone would have the inclination to tackle in a strictly intellectual pursuit such as this.
Thanks again, Dick
Devil505
 
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