Indian Point Update

Indian Point Update

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Sun May 29, 2016 8:00 am

In NYS we lost coal PPs. OK,I can kinda see why NG is our favored fuel for the moment but boy are we being short sighted. Indian Point is a disaster waiting to happen in the worst location in the world if a disaster happens. Yes, we hear weak-kneed complaints about tritium in the Hudson but all NPP leak a little of that stuff and who cares. I care, living 18 miles away as I suspect the problems are much worse. So where do you go to the a detailed informed review? Russian owned media of course. This whole video is worth listening to but start at about 10 minutes for IP NPP.... and we have lost coal power plants for this???? I suspect the plant is falling apart. We need to open up every coal PP we can and do the best we can with emissions. Build as much NG PPs as possible and get these closed down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e48-O7h1NKU

EVERYTHING requires maintenance, it's the nature of life. With nuclear once they are done they are done and it's a hazard for ever.
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Sun May 29, 2016 2:32 pm

WOW 57 views, not bad for a bored summer coal board. How about this little tidbit from a supposed expert. Hey David, what do you think? At least he is a metallurgist I can trust.


https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/201 ... attention/
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: StokerDon On: Sun May 29, 2016 8:20 pm

HEY, I GOT ONE OF THOSE TO!

Boiling water reactor. Originally fired up in the late 60's. By the way, these are the same type of nuke plants as Fukushima.

I'm a lot closer then you CN, less than 2 miles away. Your whole problem is your not close enough. With me, if something goes wrong in a big way I won't suffer for very long!

This video doesn't even get into all the experimental nuclear reactor leaks and accidents.

-Don
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: scalabro On: Mon May 30, 2016 8:23 am

More people have been killed in Ted Kennedy's car than in nuclear power plants.
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Mon May 30, 2016 9:00 am

Simply not true. Just because people do not die instantly from like from a H bomb does not mean that are not affected and that is a simpletons view. You have been sniffing too much jet fuel. I can not estimate the deaths that are probably in the millions as we not given the data. Just for summer fun we could spend a little time estimating the deaths from Fukushima or Chernobyl but that is just the tip of the iceberg. This is why deaths from tobacco smoking could be hidden for hundreds of years.
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: scalabro On: Mon May 30, 2016 9:40 am

But I like the smell of jet fuel!!!
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: dlj On: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:36 pm

coalnewbie wrote:WOW 57 views, not bad for a bored summer coal board. How about this little tidbit from a supposed expert. Hey David, what do you think? At least he is a metallurgist I can trust.


https://public-blog.nrc-gateway.gov/201 ... attention/


They don't say much. The article says:

"These are the kind of bolts you likely wouldn’t find at your local hardware store. Rather, they are made of a stainless-steel alloy capable of withstanding decades’ worth of neutron bombardment, as well as extraordinarily high temperatures and pressure."

The above description is a bit unclear. The highly corrosion resistant alloys for "extraordinarily high temperature" are typically the cobalt based or nickel based alloys. However, the above is saying that it is "a stainless-steel alloy capable of withstanding decades' worth of neutron bombardment". So these bolts are the kind you'd not find in your local hardware store, is that because of the alloy or the bolt design? Here's an image of the type of bolts that these may be:

bolts-reactor.jpg
(69.06 KiB) Viewed 17 times
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Reactor bolts
[nepathumb]74158[/nepathumb]


According to the reference book "The Reactor Handbook - Volume I Materials", the austenitic alloys are more commonly used near the reactor core (if they are indeed using a stainless steel and not either a cobalt or nickel based alloy). So they may be using a 347 SS, or a 321 SS if indeed they are using a more difficult to find stainless steel alloy not found in your local hardware store. Both are alloys known to be used in nuclear reactors. But indeed, they could be using a number of stainless steel alloys in those bolts. I'd really have to know what the alloy is, as well as the alloy of the baffle being held (now that one is likely a nickel based alloy...) in order to really comment on the broken bolts... But you've given me a nice question to look into on an otherwise slow Saturday...

dj
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: dlj On: Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:17 am

Well it would appear that I may have found what the alloy used in the bolts could have been. Looks like the cap screws were possibly made of alloy A286 stainless steel, designated by the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) as A453 grade 660.

Honestly, I've never even heard of this alloy. It is listed as a non-standard stainless steel alloy with high strength at high temperatures and better corrosion resistance than the more traditional 18-8 type austenitics. I'm going to have to look up more information on this alloy...

dj
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jul 03, 2016 7:42 am

German nuclear power plant study on cancer rates in children:

The result showed a significantly higher risk to get cancer if the children lived within a circle of less than 5 km around a nuclear power plant:


http://timeforchange.org/nuclear-power- ... r-leukemia
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: confedsailor On: Fri Jul 08, 2016 3:47 am

Well there are a slew of nickle based "superalloys" that get used in the nuke world. Grouped under the trade name of INCONEL, there are a few different ones. When I was at the papermill we had 12in ball valves that had X-750 ring seats. This alloy got used in other things that I used to work with in a past life that I can't name because unlike some folks, I will go to jail for revealing classified information. X-750 is tough stuff, I was shocked to see how badly it was corroded and eroded by the stock, but compared to how SS ring seats faired, it was far superior.

Now those fasteners, There is a pretty good chance they could be one of the PH stainless steel alloys, like 17-4 PH. Those have a high resistance to neutron embrittlement, even though they have a high cross section for absorption of neutrons.

The actual neutron embrittlement of the large forgings like core vessels and primary loop piping is greatly offset by the annealing effects of operational temperatures.

Now as for it being a BWR, well, while I never worked on one, the GE design is as good as can be expected, Fukushima was a statistical outlier when it comes to safety engineering. They had a 1000 year surge, (which btw, no one built to protect against) which blew expected (and protected against) levels away. Couple that with the disjunction of the earthquake, you had a perfect storm. The main problem was the lack of cooling to the spent fuel pools, (which like here in the US were overloaded). It was when these boiled dry, and the cladding failed, did we get the massive release of fission products. The right answer to fix that, get spent fuel cooled down and on it's way to reprocessing, (which is nearly dead in the US), or on its way to long term disposal, (not gonna happen, rot in hell Harry Reid.)

Chernobyl, well, when you build a reactor with a positive coefficient of temperature reactivity. Deliberately run it in a manner designed to minimize your scram reactivity by having the top and bottom rods in the least reactive positions. Oh and with no actual containment, just a metal shed. And then drive temperature up by cutting off steam demand while reducing coolant flow. Well, that's how you end up not needing a nightlight in Minsk, the glow will light your way home...

If you're really worried about your exposure, stay away from the sun, granite, and bananas.
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: WNY On: Fri Jul 08, 2016 7:06 am

We use the INCONEL type 718, A286,etc... for some of our gas turbine products we produce, high temp, high strength type bolts and screws. typically drilled for lock wire too. Definitely NOT cheap and not available from your local hardware store either.
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: scalabro On: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:14 pm

Fire pots should be cast from these alloys 8-)
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: dlj On: Fri Jul 08, 2016 10:55 pm

scalabro wrote:Fire pots should be cast from these alloys 8-)


Hahaha - I almost cast my magazine from one... One of the guys in our foundry jokingly said he'd make me one... Of course you can't now-a-days... But a number of years ago we could... Lots of things were made that weren't related to "production"....

Now that would have been one darned fire resistant magazine..

Of course, the material itself is going to cost you a lot of $$'s.... Nickel is currently selling between $3 and $5 a pound, Cobalt is up about the same, Chrome is running lower at the moment... How much do you think your firepot weights? Say 200 pounds? You're almost at a grand in just material cost...and you haven't made the mold or cast it yet... But you won't burn it out in your lifetime... Of course, cast iron probably won't either... That's running around $0.04 a pound...

dj
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: dlj On: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:16 pm

confedsailor wrote:Well there are a slew of nickle based "superalloys" that get used in the nuke world. Grouped under the trade name of INCONEL, there are a few different ones. When I was at the papermill we had 12in ball valves that had X-750 ring seats. This alloy got used in other things that I used to work with in a past life that I can't name because unlike some folks, I will go to jail for revealing classified information. X-750 is tough stuff, I was shocked to see how badly it was corroded and eroded by the stock, but compared to how SS ring seats faired, it was far superior.

Now those fasteners, There is a pretty good chance they could be one of the PH stainless steel alloys, like 17-4 PH. Those have a high resistance to neutron embrittlement, even though they have a high cross section for absorption of neutrons.

The actual neutron embrittlement of the large forgings like core vessels and primary loop piping is greatly offset by the annealing effects of operational temperatures.

Now as for it being a BWR, well, while I never worked on one, the GE design is as good as can be expected, Fukushima was a statistical outlier when it comes to safety engineering. They had a 1000 year surge, (which btw, no one built to protect against) which blew expected (and protected against) levels away. Couple that with the disjunction of the earthquake, you had a perfect storm. The main problem was the lack of cooling to the spent fuel pools, (which like here in the US were overloaded). It was when these boiled dry, and the cladding failed, did we get the massive release of fission products. The right answer to fix that, get spent fuel cooled down and on it's way to reprocessing, (which is nearly dead in the US), or on its way to long term disposal, (not gonna happen, rot in hell Harry Reid.)

Chernobyl, well, when you build a reactor with a positive coefficient of temperature reactivity. Deliberately run it in a manner designed to minimize your scram reactivity by having the top and bottom rods in the least reactive positions. Oh and with no actual containment, just a metal shed. And then drive temperature up by cutting off steam demand while reducing coolant flow. Well, that's how you end up not needing a nightlight in Minsk, the glow will light your way home...

If you're really worried about your exposure, stay away from the sun, granite, and bananas.


As I understand it, they don't use the precipitation hardening stainless steel alloys (e.g. 17-4 PH) close to the hot zone in the nuc's.... They tend to use the austenitics and the nickel based alloys (inconels). That X-750 is indeed a darned tough nickel based alloy. That's one of the precipitation hardening inconels.

We really should get away from the nuclear fission and move to nuclear fusion reactors... But nobody wants to invest the research $'s into getting it up to speed...

As far as the fasteners breaking at Indian point, if they are the austenitic stainless steel ASTM A452 grade 660, then the NRC issued an information notice in 1994 about that alloy having stress corrosion cracking problems in this application... Nothing new here...

dj
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Re: Indian Point Update

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Sat Jul 09, 2016 4:23 am

If you're really worried about your exposure, stay away from the sun, granite, and bananas.


You are sounding like a prof. at Berkeley, That is nonsense of course but of course then they are a bunch of liberals. Fukushima rad. is real and a growing threat. You wish to judge a REM dose by isotopes of potassium? :) ... that is enough for a coal board.
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