Bulk coal delivery protocol?

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:37 pm

Richard S. wrote:
stockingfull wrote:What I do is weigh every bucket going into my hopper. Dry, of course. Last year, I was about 1000# light on a 6 ton nominal delivery. This year, I have some left over after loading 11,925# on a nominal 7 ton load.


I'd be careful about doing that, a scale that is off by one or two pounds is going to add up to quite a lot over 14,000 pounds. If you're off by two pounds each time assuming 40 lbs in a bucket that's 700 pounds. If you're using a bathroom scale they aren't exactly known for there absolute accuracy. Did you test it to make sure using a similar sized weight around 40 pounds?


I realize that there might be a slight error in weighing "coal-in" by the bucket. But, since I do it by net (i.e., I weigh myself with the bucketful, then without on the way back to the bin), I'm pretty sure I'm not more than a pound off at a time. My net buckets average about 24# anyway, so roughly 500 of them is what we're talking about. And I gotta figure that not all of those net weights are gonna be wrong in the same direction. So I can't believe that explains all of the difference.

Besides, wouldn't it be nicer for the weight "error" to be on the high side, maybe once? ;)
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:33 am

I'm not saying one way or other other stokingfull, it's entirely possible to get ripped off. The more buckets you have though the more likely that small error is going to become a big error. If your scale is off its going to be consistently off in the same direction. The only way you could really find out is by using a decent scale that's been calibrated and tested, weigh each bucket individually and make sure to account for the bucket weight.

As far as the water goes I'd complain about it if its pouring out of there. When he tips the box up there should be an initial shot of maybe 5 gallons and then it should taper off to nothing. That's assuming hes going a few miles with it. Around here its so hilly you rarely get to place and have any water running out of it. On a really hot day (85+) you can wash nut coal and if you're going any distance (more than an hour) it will almost bone dry by the time you get there unless its covered.

If the purpose is just to wet it tell him to bring it dry and you'll spray a hose on it while its going in the basement. :D
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Lumberjack On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 8:09 pm

Even if the guy is ripping you off the question becomes.... Are you going to get a better deal elsewhere? Maybe the reason the other guy is higher is due to his more "honest" loads? :out:
Lumberjack
 


Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:48 pm

Lumberjack wrote:Even if the guy is ripping you off the question becomes.... Are you going to get a better deal elsewhere? Maybe the reason the other guy is higher is due to his more "honest" loads? :out:


Regardless you should be getting what you are paying for, I can say three or four hundred pounds over a 7 ton load and isn't much and is certainly possible having been in the business. It's when it's tons that are missing that it becomes a really problem and its not just for the customer either. Having been the guy with the honest loads I can tell you it's quite frustrating trying to get customers when you're competing against dishonest people especially when a customers tells you they are getting it for X amount and you know full well there is no possible way it could be an honest load. That's half the reason I gave it up. I had one guy call on the phone for quote and he called me a thief. :lol: On the other side of it I've had one customers tell me that the one guy refused to bring coal to him after he scheduled it once he found out I was the previous hauler.

I went to one new customers house and he looks at my 7 ton truck and tells me there isn't 7 ton on there. He shows me where the coal should be at after 7 ton. Sure you'll get that much I tell him knowing it was going to be way beyond that. After filling the bin well beyond the line and past its capacity I had to ask him where he wanted the rest of it.... :lol:

There's other issues too, in the situation above I had to dump coal on the ground. Then there's people that will be calculating what they are saving only to find out its not nearly as much as they'd expected and might switch to something else.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:17 pm

What's with the washing bit? I'll take mine dry and dusty thank you very much. What's the point of shovelling wet coal into a firebox? and the tarry black gucky water that stains everything... Just gimme good honest coaldust...
Coal Jockey
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Newmac
Stove/Furnace Model: GAO

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:19 pm

Richard S. wrote:
Lumberjack wrote:Even if the guy is ripping you off the question becomes.... Are you going to get a better deal elsewhere? Maybe the reason the other guy is higher is due to his more "honest" loads? :out:


Regardless you should be getting what you are paying for, I can say three or four hundred pounds over a 7 ton load and isn't much and is certainly possible having been in the business. It's when it's tons that are missing that it becomes a really problem and its not just for the customer either. Having been the guy with the honest loads I can tell you it's quite frustrating trying to get customers when you're competing against dishonest people especially when a customers tells you they are getting it for X amount and you know full well there is no possible way it could be an honest load. That's half the reason I gave it up. I had one guy call on the phone for quote and he called me a thief. :lol: On the other side of it I've had one customers tell me that the one guy refused to bring coal to him after he scheduled it once he found out I was the previous hauler.

I went to one new customers house and he looks at my 7 ton truck and tells me there isn't 7 ton on there. He shows me where the coal should be at after 7 ton. Sure you'll get that much I tell him knowing it was going to be way beyond that. After filling the bin well beyond the line and past its capacity I had to ask him where he wanted the rest of it.... :lol:

There's other issues too, in the situation above I had to dump coal on the ground. Then there's people that will be calculating what they are saving only to find out its not nearly as much as they'd expected and might switch to something else.


Now you're losing me.

Why don't we just do it with honest injin, certified weight tickets? :confused:
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:11 pm

Coal Jockey wrote:What's with the washing bit? I'll take mine dry and dusty thank you very much. What's the point of shovelling wet coal into a firebox? and the tarry black gucky water that stains everything... Just gimme good honest coaldust...


If you're getting a lot of tarry black crap then it's not wahsed but instead it's just wet. Most breakers will have pockets for loading coal, the pocket has a chute on it similar to what the coal truck is going to have. Before this chute is going to be screen, above the screen is going to be spray bar. As the coal comes out of the pocket it gets screened and washed. All that gunk and dust goes through the screen and you get a nice clean dust free piece of coal. The easiest way to tell is check the chute if they stop in the middle of a delivery, if its nice and shiny then that's what you got. If it's really clean you can almost get the water to run clear.

That's besides the fact you're going to have a a giant layer of dust in your cellar. If you put a dry load of coal into a basement that isn't very clean the dust is ridiculous. You have to understand with a coal truck you dump off 7 ton in 5 minutes, BTU for BTU its the fastest delivery you'll ever get compared to other fuels. This creates a huge amount of dust if its dry. It will create dust even when its wet simply from the pieces shattering off. Besides the obvious reason of you don't want to be breathing that stuff you're going to have a layer on everything in your basement and if you have a old house with gaps where the dust can get upstairs its also going to be all over everything up there.

As far as shovelling into the firebox, it doesn't matter. the only time I've heard of anyone having trouble with wet coal was stoker that used barley which is like sand. It holds a lot of water...


stockingfull wrote:Now you're losing me.

Why don't we just do it with honest injin, certified weight tickets? :confused:


I don't understand what you mean stockingfull? Where am I losing you? I'm certainly an advocate of honest deliveries and have stressed it when I was in business, I even went as far as placing the cubic feet in an ad once. As far as the ticket goes you might as well wipe your ass with that ticket no matter where it's from. :lol:

Seriously that's all its good for. As I said above the only way to get an honest delivery that you can absolutely be certain is honest is by having an honest dealer its a dice roll. Most of your dealers are going to be honest but it only takes a few to screw things up.

For example, nearly 90% of the deliveries I made went right by my house. There was nothing preventing me from letting a little fall off the truck into the basement if I wanted. This ins't something that is particular to the coal dealers either, the same thing happens with oil or whatever else can be bought in bulk.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: e.alleg On: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:35 pm

buy bagged coal. The 50# tied off bags are the best for accuracy, as the bag holds maximum probably 60 pounds of dry rice coal, you just can't get any more in and still tie it closed. So if they decide to really soak it and it's got a big 'ol handle on it where it's tied off halfway down then you know the guys a crook. Most dealers will overfill the bags a little rather than risk being underweight. The penalty for misrepresenting weight is huge, they can get away with it with bulk delivery, not on bagged coal. The state can come and check each and every one of their bags they have on hand and dish out a fine for each one if they feel it is needed. The coal dealers have it all figured out, they make so much per ton. They can't rip you off on the bags so they charge more for them. HA! I can't see how anyone would want to be coal dealer now that diesel is almost $5 a gallon, the customers are going to gripe about the price increase for delivery, and if the dealer doesn't raise the price he will eventually start to lose money, then on that tight margin all it will take is one or two major mechanical breakdowns to close the doors.
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:26 am

e.alleg wrote:buy bagged coal.


Tha't fine too but even if you're getting ripped off at bulk you're still spending more money. Bare in mind around here it's running about $150 a ton delivered. I don't want to sound like I'm saying this is some big game every dealer is on, that is simply not the case. Most of your dealers are going to be honest. What you do want to be leary of is dealers that are travelling very long distances for price that doesn't seem right.

The coal dealers have it all figured out, they make so much per ton. They can't rip you off on the bags so they charge more for them. HA!


The bags cost more because there is a lot of added expense, the bags even locally are not much less than what most of the people on here are paying. If you're getting bulk the coal truck gets loaded at the breaker and it goes to your house. If you're getting bagged it has to go on a truck to be taken to bagging plant. they then have to bag it, you got the cost of the bag, the person to run the equipment, the maintenace on the bagging equipment, the pallet, the wrapping if they wrap it... etc. then it has to be loaded onto a truck or stored. Lots of handling involved and it all adds up.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Coal Jockey On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:23 am

All my coal comes in on flatdeck trucks, on skids, in bags. I can't get bulk. I have to manually carry wet and dripping bags that have been stored outside with substandard wrapping. I'll still take it dry please.
Coal Jockey
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Newmac
Stove/Furnace Model: GAO

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Charlie Z On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:41 am

My coal company's slogan is, "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you."

Should I be concerned?
Charlie Z
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Coalbrookdale
Stove/Furnace Model: Darby

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:29 am

Charlie Z wrote:My coal company's slogan is, "We cheat the other guy and pass the savings on to you."

Should I be concerned?


:lol: Yea if you're first in line.

Coal Jockey wrote:All my coal comes in on flatdeck trucks, on skids, in bags. I can't get bulk. I have to manually carry wet and dripping bags that have been stored outside with substandard wrapping. I'll still take it dry please.


Bag coal is a different situation, at most you'd want it just a little damp. I don't know what the exactly what they do at the processing plant, if it's that wet it must be coming right out of the breaker. That or they wetting it at the plant to keep the dust down. Some moisture is to be expected, I'm surprised its thats wet when you get it.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Yanche On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 10:55 am

Richard, what's your experience and opinion of honest bulk weight at the breakers? There's certainly the potential for the "scale man" to fudge the gross, tare, net weights, wet allowance, etc. to the breakers favor.
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:42 am

Yanche wrote:Richard, what's your experience and opinion of honest bulk weight at the breakers? There's certainly the potential for the "scale man" to fudge the gross, tare, net weights, wet allowance, etc. to the breakers favor.


They can't at least for the coalman or people that are in business, like I said any good coalman is going to know what's on his truck within few a hundred pounds. Tractor trailers or tri-axles in lot of cases are going to be going on scale before they dump. That's besides the fact you don't want to be screwing up a multi-million dollar business... not worth it. The weights an measure guys had the weighmaster at the breaker I went to so frazzled the one year she was making us dump off or put on as little as 50 pounds. That didn't last long but ohhhhh the agony when it was going on... lol That's PITA, and a huge time waster and most of the time it was getting thrown off the truck, I was rarely under. I always tried to get enough and just a few more shovels full to make sure.

As far as the consumer goes doubtful, be a lot of trouble to do it just for them and you're not really going anywhere in the end because its such a small amount.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Freddy On: Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:36 pm

IF I arrange to have a 22 ton load trucked to me I'm going to tell them I want to see the weigh scale tickets and for them to tell the driver to expect an extra 1/2 hour to unload as I have portable scales and will weigh them when they get here. Maybe I have scales, maybe I don't. Maybe I have them & they've been loaned out on the day the coal arrives. If they think they will, could, or might get weighed when they get here, perhaps the type of guy that stops at home for a sandwich and some free coal will skip his lunch on my load.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined