Bulk Coal Delivery Protocol?

CoalHeat · Post by **CoalHeat** » Fri. Apr. 25, 2008 9:48 pm

Freddy wrote:IF I arrange to have a 22 ton load trucked to me I'm going to tell them I want to see the weigh scale tickets and for them to tell the driver to expect an extra 1/2 hour to unload as I have portable scales and will weigh them when they get here. Maybe I have scales, maybe I don't. Maybe I have them & they've been loaned out on the day the coal arrives. If they think they will, could, or might get weighed when they get here, perhaps the type of guy that stops at home for a sandwich and some free coal will skip his lunch on my load.

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You could always build your own scale, just make sure to keep the ducks off of it, they can float on water.

e.alleg · Post by **e.alleg** » Fri. Apr. 25, 2008 11:09 pm

The very best advice I can give is to only buy your coal from people that you like and trust. I buy from 2 different dealers. I see these people at the fair, at the store, at restaurants, at church. I don't think that they are the type of people that would rob me so I don't have to stress about weighing my coal. They charge the same price and are the same distance, but different brands.

Yanche · Post by **Yanche** » Sat. Apr. 26, 2008 9:53 pm

You could also make stopping at commercial scales and bringing you the weight ticket part of your WRITTEN coal purchase contract. Be sure to research scale locations and pick one the doesn't detour the trucker from his desired route.

Post by **Richard S.** » Sun. Apr. 27, 2008 12:36 am

Yanche wrote:You could also make stopping at commercial scales and bringing you the weight ticket part of your WRITTEN coal purchase contract.

For small loads they will just tell you to call someone else and 7 ton would constitute a small load, I wouldn't do either the contract or the scale for such deliveries. I'm not even sure I'd go through the hassle with a tri-axle or trailer. It wouldn't be worth the hassle for either me or the customer. I'd only do the contract if you're were buying like 50 ton or more and the scale if you were willing to pay for the time and that would be a large percentage if its just 7 ton. The profit margin on bulk coal for deliveries is not all that great, dealers are not paying much less that what the general public is. Money is made on quantity, two good drivers with two good trucks could deliver 50+ ton in a day locally. I did 32 tom by myself one day with a 5 ton lift and the first trip was a full 3 hours there and back. Messing around on another scale is not in the plans, that's besides the fact that of all the routes I took I can't think of one. Even if your coalman did agree to this its going to drive the price up especially if they have to go on scale. Generally if I ever got very demanding customers I'd tell them to just call someone else, usually not worth it because it just becomes giant hassle no matter what you do. If it wasn't one thing it would be the other.

Freddy · Post by **Freddy** » Sun. Apr. 27, 2008 5:41 am

That girl in the cage.... I think that's my cousin!

It's hard to buy from a friend when it's the first purchase and the only dealers are 13 hours away. I have to go on references from people on here, or by my gut feeling from phone conversations. So far, Superior seems a good candidate. They do not truck, but they know people that do and might be able to arrange delivery of 22 ton. They are going to find a trucker and phone me Tue or Wed.

lincolnmania · Post by **lincolnmania** » Sun. Apr. 27, 2008 5:53 am

Freddy wrote:That girl in the cage.... I think that's my cousin!

It's hard to buy from a friend when it's the first purchase and the only dealers are 13 hours away. I have to go on references from people on here, or by my gut feeling from phone conversations. So far, Superior seems a good candidate. They do not truck, but they know people that do and might be able to arrange delivery of 22 ton. They are going to find a trucker and phone me Tue or Wed.

superior is good stuff!......the hegins breaker is next door and I drive 13 miles to superior

CoalHeat · Post by **CoalHeat** » Sun. Apr. 27, 2008 7:35 am

Freddy wrote:That girl in the cage.... I think that's my cousin!

It's hard to buy from a friend when it's the first purchase and the only dealers are 13 hours away. I have to go on references from people on here, or by my gut feeling from phone conversations. So far, Superior seems a good candidate. They do not truck, but they know people that do and might be able to arrange delivery of 22 ton. They are going to find a trucker and phone me Tue or Wed.

Your cousin's a witch?

Superior's the good coal. Go with them.

stockingfull · Post by **stockingfull** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 3:38 pm

Richard S. wrote:
stockingfull wrote: Now you're losing me.

Why don't we just do it with honest injin, certified weight tickets?
I don't understand what you mean stockingfull? Where am I losing you? I'm certainly an advocate of honest deliveries and have stressed it when I was in business, I even went as far as placing the cubic feet in an ad once. As far as the ticket goes you might as well wipe your ass with that ticket no matter where it's from.

Seriously that's all its good for. As I said above the only way to get an honest delivery that you can absolutely be certain is honest is by having an honest dealer its a dice roll. Most of your dealers are going to be honest but it only takes a few to screw things up.

For example, nearly 90% of the deliveries I made went right by my house. There was nothing preventing me from letting a little fall off the truck into the basement if I wanted. This ins't something that is particular to the coal dealers either, the same thing happens with oil or whatever else can be bought in bulk.

If the source and the scales are at the supplier's yard, can't I ask to witness the tare, the loading and the loaded weighing? Is there anything wrong with that?

CoalHeat · Post by **CoalHeat** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 6:11 pm

stockingfull wrote:
Richard S. wrote: I don't understand what you mean stockingfull? Where am I losing you? I'm certainly an advocate of honest deliveries and have stressed it when I was in business, I even went as far as placing the cubic feet in an ad once. As far as the ticket goes you might as well wipe your ass with that ticket no matter where it's from.

Seriously that's all its good for. As I said above the only way to get an honest delivery that you can absolutely be certain is honest is by having an honest dealer its a dice roll. Most of your dealers are going to be honest but it only takes a few to screw things up.

For example, nearly 90% of the deliveries I made went right by my house. There was nothing preventing me from letting a little fall off the truck into the basement if I wanted. This ins't something that is particular to the coal dealers either, the same thing happens with oil or whatever else can be bought in bulk.
If the source and the scales are at the supplier's yard, can't I ask to witness the tare, the loading and the loaded weighing? Is there anything wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with that, except that the people you are dealing with will refer to you as "The pain-in-the-ass-who-thinks-we're-trying -to -cheat-him" from that point forward.

My advise to you is to buy a decent dump trailer and go to the coal yard or breaker and get the coal yourself, like a lot of us do. That way if you get cheated you'll have no one to blame but yourself. You can even buy a portable scale to weigh each wheel to compare the dealer's tare and gross weight readings to yours.

Post by **Richard S.** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 7:05 pm

At Hudson where I was getting my coal you can see the readout for the scale. As Wood n' Coal suggested they probaly not going to think very highly of you if you make request to do that.

stockingfull · Post by **stockingfull** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 7:55 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:
stockingfull wrote: If the source and the scales are at the supplier's yard, can't I ask to witness the tare, the loading and the loaded weighing? Is there anything wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with that, except that the people you are dealing with will refer to you as "The pain-in-the-ass-who-thinks-we're-trying -to -cheat-him" from that point forward.

PITA! Now we're gettin' somewhere!

Is it an insult to question a document which purports to be a weight ticket (which, BTW, my supplier would generate and I would be charged against if I were to take delivery with my vehicle at his yard), yet has exactly 12,000 lbs. recorded for my 6-ton order, thus cannot possibly be a genuine weight ticket? (Particularly since my own serial weight was 10,869# on a 12,000# order last year (9% short), and I guesstimate about 12,500# on a 14,000# order this season (11% short).) If so, why?

This is the part I just don't get. If I'm paying for a weight delivery (as opposed to a certain number of cubic feet or yards), and if my vehicle would be weighed before and after if I took delivery there myself, then why is it an affront to ask my supplier to show me a genuine before and after weight ticket for my load?

Post by **Richard S.** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 8:12 pm

stockingfull wrote: Is it an insult to question a document which purports to be a weight ticket (which, BTW, my supplier would generate and I would be charged against if I were to take delivery with my vehicle at his yard), yet has exactly 12,000 lbs. recorded for my 6-ton order, thus cannot possibly be a genuine weight ticket?

Certainly it could genuine, that's the nature of buying in bulk. I could be wrong but I believe they allow for a small percentage. I'll give you an example of why, lets say I arrive at breaker with my nice clean truck truck and go across scale. If I have to travel through the yard with a lot of mud it's not unthinkable to assume I could pick up 100 lbs of mud on the truck... It's just the way it is with any bulk product like this, you're not going to get ticket that is exact. Here's another example, suppose you go pick up sand after a heavy night of rain....

then why is it an affront to ask my supplier to show me a genuine before and after weight ticket for my load?

I never had a problem showing anyone a legitimate weight slip but if they were following me around I'd tell them to hit the road and call someone else...

If your weight is off by 1.5 tons you certainly have a legitimate complaint but once you get down around 2 or 3 hundred pounds you become a nuisance.

As I posted above if I ever had anyone call making demands I'd simply tell them to call someone else. Having been down that road it's not worth it, you could do everything they ask and you'll get a call 3 days later with some other stupid complaint. Even if you find the most honest person in the world they aren't going to appreciate it.

LsFarm · Post by **LsFarm** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 8:19 pm

Most of the weight tickets I've recieved are hand written by the weighmaster of person running and reading the scale.. So there really is not a 'valid' printout of the scale readings.. I'm sure there are scales that generate a pair of weights and the difference, automaticly printed for billing, but I've not seen one yet... I think I've been to six different coal scales. I know my propane deliveries have a printing machine built into the delivery meter.

Most weighmasters subtract a generous amount for water-weight. I've not felt cheated at any breaker or scale I've been to.

I'd check very closely the scale you are using to dispute the coal delivery for accuracy.

Greg L

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coalkirk · Post by **coalkirk** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 8:23 pm

stockingfull wrote:
Wood'nCoal wrote: Nothing wrong with that, except that the people you are dealing with will refer to you as "The pain-in-the-ass-who-thinks-we're-trying -to -cheat-him" from that point forward.
PITA! Now we're gettin' somewhere!

Is it an insult to question a document which purports to be a weight ticket (which, BTW, my supplier would generate and I would be charged against if I were to take delivery with my vehicle at his yard), yet has exactly 12,000 lbs. recorded for my 6-ton order, thus cannot possibly be a genuine weight ticket? (Particularly since my own serial weight was 10,869# on a 12,000# order last year (9% short), and I guesstimate about 12,500# on a 14,000# order this season (11% short).) If so, why?

This is the part I just don't get. If I'm paying for a weight delivery (as opposed to a certain number of cubic feet or yards), and if my vehicle would be weighed before and after if I took delivery there myself, then why is it an affront to ask my supplier to show me a genuine before and after weight ticket for my load?

Yea. It's alot like getting billed by your attorney for every mouse fart he thought he heard. Just cheat the next client like is the custom of most attorneys and don't worry about the 100 lbs of coal you MIGHT be shorted.

Yanche · Post by **Yanche** » Mon. Apr. 28, 2008 8:30 pm

If you look at the "PA_Coal_Purchase_Specification" pdf file attachment I posted on page 1 of this topic you will see when PA government buys coal they want two weigh tickets. Quote, "Two Weigh Slips must accompany each delivery (one from source and one from check weigh
location). If the scale is computerized provide the facility with the computerized weigh slip." My suggestion in my second post was to request and pay for a weight at a commercial truck stop scale. Obviously this and the other items suggested in the pdf file only make sense if you are buying tractor trailer loads that are being hauled long distances by contract haulers. Having a written contract with specifications and a method for independently verifying the weight will keep you from getting shafted. You may poo-poo the idea but for one Penn Coal Sales is familiar with exactly the referenced contract terms. They are the winning bidder on the PA state coal contract.

Those of us much closer to NEPA and have our own trucks and/or trailers it doesn't make sense. We build up a business relationship and trust with one or more breakers. I we get screwed in quantity or quality we don't go back. It's not the end of the world because we don't buy much a one time. For those buying trailer loads at a time getting quality and a fair load is a big deal.