Bulk coal delivery protocol?

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:45 pm

stockingfull wrote:This is the part I just don't get. If I'm paying for a weight delivery (as opposed to a certain number of cubic feet or yards), and if my vehicle would be weighed before and after if I took delivery there myself, then why is it an affront to ask my supplier to show me a genuine before and after weight ticket for my load?


You are absolutely right, you don't get it. That's why I suggested you get the coal yourself, and weigh your vehicle/trailer elsewhere before and after getting the coal. That's the only way to be sure you aren't being cheated. To make requests to view the delivery truck weights before and after loading is, in my opinion, an insult to the people you are dealing with. It's the same as just telling them you don't trust them and you are sure they are cheating you. I wouldn't be surprised if you made a request like that and they told you to take a hike.

In my business if a customer wanted me to weigh a 50 lb. pail of floor cleaner before he bought it I would politely refuse, I don't want to do business with someone like that. The next call would be that the product doesn't do what I said it would.

Note to Greg:
Harmony generates a printout with the weights on it, signed by the weighmaster. Superior's is hand written and signed.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 8:53 pm

Wood'nCoal wrote:
Note to Greg:
Harmony generates a printout with the weights on it, signed by the weighmaster. Superior's is hand written and signed.


It's going to depend on whatever they have, some still use mechanical scales with sliding weights on them. Others like Hudson have only a digital readout which is manually transferred to the weightslip. Others will be fully computerized with a print out.

Doesn't matter which one as long as the scale is correct. ;)
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: e.alleg On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:22 pm

Propane is the way to go if you need exact numbers. The truck generates an exact slip to the hundredth place on exactly how much gas went into your tank. With coal even an exact number isn't going to help you. One ton might be 15% ash, the next ton might be 7% ash, maybe one ton contains 2% fines or maybe 5% wood/rocks/non-coal from a dirty dump truck or loader. Do you get it now? In the whole scheme of things 22 tons isn't that much coal, it's just one truckload. One variable is certain, you will save money with coal even buying it bagged. I run a business where the customer pays me first and then I ship their part. If they don't trust me then I don't do business with them. PERIOD! I tell them that I wouldn't have stayed in business for years by ripping people off, I would think the same of the coal dealer.
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520


Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:44 pm

My supplier is 4 mi away. Don't even know where the next closest one is. But look at my numbers (above): in 2 seasons, I'm short about 1 1/4 tons on 13 tons purchased. Funny that it didn't work out either season that I got more than I ordered. :roll: Instead, while the price I was quoted was $200/ton +/-, I actually paid $222/ton.

So I do understand the idea that some folks would rather pay a higher unit price and actually get the weight they order. I don't understand why the weighing is done for my vehicle but not for his.

But it reminds me of the old plumber's joke. Plumber finishes the small job and gives the homeowner his bill. He's charged the guy $100/hr. The guy looks at the invoice and says, "$150 an hour! Wow, I'm a lawyer and I can't charge $150 an hour!" The plumber responds, "Neither could I when I was a lawyer."
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: mike On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:11 pm

I would like to add that I've gotten coal from 8 different breakers. I know what my truck is like with one ton and I know what it's like with two ton. Each time I got coal the weigh slips seemed pretty acurate by the seat of my pants guess. You should be able to mark on the side of your bin where 1,2,3 tons etc. should be by volume and see how close it is.
mike
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Gentleman Janitor GJ5
Stove/Furnace Model: Reading utility stove

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:21 pm

stockingfull wrote: I don't understand why the weighing is done for my vehicle but not for his.


Could you clarify that? In PA you are required to go across the scale for every load, you would have to even weigh each load if you're splitting it. If for example you were going to take two loads to two different houses you'd first have to come in and get your light weight. Load the first load and go weigh to get the second light weight for the other ticket. Then load the other half and go weigh again.

A lot of places are not going to strictly adhere to multiple weighings for practical purposes . Especially in the winter when you have a big giant line of trucks waiting for coal. Simply too time consuming and if you did do that it would only drive the cost up for the consumer. At one point when I first started we never went on the scale except when we were leaving, they already had the light weight. A light weight I might add with full tank of fuel and as much weight on the truck as possible. They knew everyone did it but it was simply easier. They'd give you a warning a day ahead of time if they wanted a new light weight... :lol:

Over zealous weights and measures inspectors on an honest operation is always a detriment to the consumer. As an example Hudson used to sell 5 gallon bucket fulls for $2. Thats about 40lbs. or the equivalent of a 40 lb. bag. The weight guys insisted they had to weigh them so Hudson simply stopped offering it because the time involved wasn't worth it...
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:14 am

stockingfull wrote:My supplier is 4 mi away. Don't even know where the next closest one is. But look at my numbers (above): in 2 seasons, I'm short about 1 1/4 tons on 13 tons purchased. Funny that it didn't work out either season that I got more than I ordered. :roll: Instead, while the price I was quoted was $200/ton +/-, I actually paid $222/ton.


Find a new supplier.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: e.alleg On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:32 am

$220 a ton isn't bad in New York....
e.alleg
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM
Stove/Furnace Model: 520

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:07 am

stockingfull wrote:
Richard S. wrote:
stockingfull wrote:What I do is weigh every bucket going into my hopper. Dry, of course. Last year, I was about 1000# light on a 6 ton nominal delivery. This year, I have some left over after loading 11,925# on a nominal 7 ton load.


I'd be careful about doing that, a scale that is off by one or two pounds is going to add up to quite a lot over 14,000 pounds. If you're off by two pounds each time assuming 40 lbs in a bucket that's 700 pounds. If you're using a bathroom scale they aren't exactly known for there absolute accuracy. Did you test it to make sure using a similar sized weight around 40 pounds?


I realize that there might be a slight error in weighing "coal-in" by the bucket. But, since I do it by net (i.e., I weigh myself with the bucketful, then without on the way back to the bin), I'm pretty sure I'm not more than a pound off at a time. My net buckets average about 24# anyway, so roughly 500 of them is what we're talking about. And I gotta figure that not all of those net weights are gonna be wrong in the same direction. So I can't believe that explains all of the difference.

Besides, wouldn't it be nicer for the weight "error" to be on the high side, maybe once? ;)


Take one of your buckets that you weigh on your bathroom scale to your local vets office where they will have a digital scale in the waiting room and weigh it. Now take the difference between what the real weight is and what you thought the real weight was a multiply by 583. (number of 24# buckets in 14,000#.) There's your missing 1000#.
:shock: :shock:
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:22 am

Get your own certified portable truck scales so your delivery guy won't be delayed, you could even start a service for other coal users or get a certified 150# digital scale with your 5 gallon buckets tare weight written on the side of each bucket along with a written log for accuracy sake. After you have an accurate weight you can decide if it is worth it to be a PIA customer. Like others have said if your coal dealer is honest you are just being annoying if he is not you need another dealer.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:28 am

coalkirk wrote:
stockingfull wrote:
Richard S. wrote:I'd be careful about doing that, a scale that is off by one or two pounds is going to add up to quite a lot over 14,000 pounds. If you're off by two pounds each time assuming 40 lbs in a bucket that's 700 pounds. If you're using a bathroom scale they aren't exactly known for there absolute accuracy. Did you test it to make sure using a similar sized weight around 40 pounds?


I realize that there might be a slight error in weighing "coal-in" by the bucket. But, since I do it by net (i.e., I weigh myself with the bucketful, then without on the way back to the bin), I'm pretty sure I'm not more than a pound off at a time. My net buckets average about 24# anyway, so roughly 500 of them is what we're talking about. And I gotta figure that not all of those net weights are gonna be wrong in the same direction. So I can't believe that explains all of the difference.

Besides, wouldn't it be nicer for the weight "error" to be on the high side, maybe once? ;)


Take one of your buckets that you weigh on your bathroom scale to your local vets office where they will have a digital scale in the waiting room and weigh it. Now take the difference between what the real weight is and what you thought the real weight was a multiply by 583. (number of 24# buckets in 14,000#.) There's your missing 1000#.
:shock: :shock:


Yeah, but I don't weigh the buckets on the scale, I weigh myself on the way to and from the hopper, so I'm getting a loaded and tare weight on myself with and without the coal. I do the subtraction and make my entries. Pretty much negates net scale error, I think.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:55 am

stockingfull wrote:Pretty much negates net scale error, I think.


Not if the scale is off, if you're getting about 24 pounds a bucket even if its off by one pound that's 600 pounds over 7 ton. Scales can be off, wasn't no accident when we go to a wrestling meet in High school and everyone would weigh 1/2 pound more than they did at the home scale. And thats on a doctor's type scale that could be certified if it wasn't wrong and are usually very accurate. If you're using the same scale you did last year the same error is going to carry over this year.

I'm not saying you're wrong, it's entirely possible you're right and if you are getting ripped off that much I'd be bitching about it too. What I'd do is this year make sure to get an accurate readings from a good scale. You could even use the one you have now but you need to test it to make sure that its accurate with a known weight at approximately the total weight your weighing. Make sure every few days to test against the known weight.

I can remember balancing the scales in wrestling just about everyday, they'd never stay accurate and agasin those were doctor type scales and not some cheap bathroom scale. Same with the truck scales but that's a slightly different story because the debris on the scale was also a big factor there.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:47 am

In other words, you weigh 250#, not 225# :lol: :lol:
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:23 am

http://archive.southcoasttoday.com/daily/01-01/01-07-01/e02li127.htm
There are three basic types of scales, says Crynkovich. Calibrated balance-beam scales like those in doctors' offices, mechanical scales and digital-electronic models.
The balance beams, which work on a simple counterweight mechanism, are the industry gold standard for accuracy (to within 1/4 pound). They're available to consumers mostly through medical distributors and specialty retailers such as Hammacher Schlemmer stores and catalog (1-800-283-9400 or http://www.hammacher.com).
The mechanical scale that's most common for home use is widely available at department stores and from mass merchandisers. This type operates on a spring and lever system with a dial or indicator that rotates as the spring stretches. Depending on the quality of construction, it's accurate, according to Crynkovich, to within 1 percent of a person's body weight.
That's the same degree of accuracy you'll find in the digital-electronic scale, which works using "strain-gauge" technology, in which a person's weight on the scale platform causes an electrical conductor mechanism to undergo physical changes that are registered on the scale's display.



And from a diet forum:
http://forums.dietpower.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=180
I am trying to find the most accurate and repeatable home bathroom scale I can. I am tired of having to weigh myself 5 or 6 times and taking the "average" because I get 5 or 6 different readings!


I just went to a Bed, Bath & Beyond and tried every scale on display there. My weight registered anywhere from 158 to 163.5 lbs.


Just some food for thought. You really need to use an accurate tool if you expect to get any results you can use.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:43 am

coalkirk wrote:In other words, you weigh 250#, not 225# :lol: :lol:


... AND I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! :mad3:

Seriously, the scale issue is a distraction, IMHO. My weights on the scale correspond to my weight on my strain-gauge digital scale and besides, I'm only measuring the "delta" to get net coal weight. Sure, some of my bucket entries will be a pound high, or low, but there's just no basis to believe, or for my supplier to argue, that all the weights are two pounds low on every 24#.

So let's get to the question why tare and gross weighing is good for the goose (customer) but not for the gander (delivering supplier).
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace