Bulk coal delivery protocol?

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:56 am

stockingfull wrote:
coalkirk wrote:In other words, you weigh 250#, not 225# :lol: :lol:


... AND I WANT MY MONEY BACK!!! :mad3:

Seriously, the scale issue is a distraction, IMHO. My weights on the scale correspond to my weight on my strain-gauge digital scale and besides, I'm only measuring the "delta" to get net coal weight. Sure, some of my bucket entries will be a pound high, or low, but there's just no basis to believe, or for my supplier to argue, that all the weights are two pounds low on every 24#.

So let's get to the question why tare and gross weighing is good for the goose (customer) but not for the gander (delivering supplier).

For an otherwise intelligent man, you have no common sense. If you scale is off, so is the difference between your weight and your weight with the coal. Go pick up your own damn coal and watch them weigh your vehicle and then watch them weigh it with the coal and stop whining! :P Or you could just pay the oil man and hope his metering gauge is accurate.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 7:57 am

stockingfull wrote:
Seriously, the scale issue is a distraction, IMHO.


It wouldn't be distraction if it was suppliers scale was off by that much would it? If your scale is mechanical like the old spring types its going to be consistently off in one direction, just to add I'd imagine it would off on the light side. you cannot make an accurate judgement without an accurate tool.

So let's get to the question why tare and gross weighing is good for the goose (customer) but not for the gander (delivering supplier).


Again in Pennsylvania all those weights are listed, legally I couldn't leave the breaker without a weighslip even if I was going to my own house. If you get stopped they'll ask you for it... I don't know what the law is in N.Y.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 8:15 am

stockingfull wrote:My supplier is 4 mi away. Don't even know where the next closest one is. But look at my numbers (above): in 2 seasons, I'm short about 1 1/4 tons on 13 tons purchased. Funny that it didn't work out either season that I got more than I ordered. :roll: Instead, while the price I was quoted was $200/ton +/-, I actually paid $222/ton.


If you feel that you were cheated on your coal delivery then why are you wasting time and energy talking about it here? I suggest you find a lawyer and try to recover your lost money legally.

I'm sure with all the resources available here and elsewhere you could find another dealer to buy coal from.

All this discussion about the weight of the coal you had delivered is a waste of time. You are talking to the wrong people. Take it up with the people you bought the coal from.

An interesting question: After the first season of buying from this dealer why did you go back and buy from them a second season if you felt they were cheating you? I suppose you plan on getting more coal from them for next season, so you can bitch about being cheated again.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert


Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:01 am

Bathroom scales say ‘Not for Trade’ for a reason.
Certified means it has been tested for accuracy, 5 lb really is 5 lb, by the weights and measures folks.
If you used a certified scale you could actually have a conversation about this with your coal guy and not get laughed at. Time is money, if you slow the coal man down; you are going to pay more per ton. This is also known as a PIA charge/factor to people who do service work.
5 gallon buckets typically hold 40 lb of nut, why do your buckets only weigh 24#. You have almost doubled any inaccuracy in your non-certified scale by weighing it light.
The issue here is you used a non-certified scale to weigh a certified load, you have no valid/accurate weight therefore no substantial evidence that you got shorted, not your methodology. You are calling into question the honesty of your coalman and the accuracy of a certified scale by weighing 7 tons of coal on a bathroom scale.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:38 am

Wood'nCoal wrote:
stockingfull wrote:My supplier is 4 mi away. Don't even know where the next closest one is. But look at my numbers (above): in 2 seasons, I'm short about 1 1/4 tons on 13 tons purchased. Funny that it didn't work out either season that I got more than I ordered. :roll: Instead, while the price I was quoted was $200/ton +/-, I actually paid $222/ton.


If you feel that you were cheated on your coal delivery then why are you wasting time and energy talking about it here? I suggest you find a lawyer and try to recover your lost money legally.

I'm sure with all the resources available here and elsewhere you could find another dealer to buy coal from.

All this discussion about the weight of the coal you had delivered is a waste of time. You are talking to the wrong people. Take it up with the people you bought the coal from.

An interesting question: After the first season of buying from this dealer why did you go back and buy from them a second season if you felt they were cheating you? I suppose you plan on getting more coal from them for next season, so you can *censored* about being cheated again.


The whole point of this thread was to find out what the custom in the business is. I thought it was one of the essential purposes of a forum like this. :roll:

And, while I had concluded I was short on the first delivery, I wanted to see what would happen the second year to determine whether it was a "trend." Now that my second season's numbers have been crunched, I have concluded that it is.

So now the question becomes whether any law has been violated, or whether it's just common law fraud. But, why would I want to go down that road at all, much less before I know a little more about how all this is done, to be precise, whether there's some custom in the industry that saves all this, like "oh, everybody does that," or, "anything w/in 10% is considered a full delivery," etc?

I've seen the precision with which bulk deliveries are measured in the marine business (where tiny percentages can mean very big $), but never on this scale, if you'll pardon the expression.

:secret: So, if you're weary of responding, you don't have to anymore. ;)
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:40 am

CapeCoaler wrote:Bathroom scales say ‘Not for Trade’ for a reason.
Certified means it has been tested for accuracy, 5 lb really is 5 lb, by the weights and measures folks.
If you used a certified scale you could actually have a conversation about this with your coal guy and not get laughed at. Time is money, if you slow the coal man down; you are going to pay more per ton. This is also known as a PIA charge/factor to people who do service work.
5 gallon buckets typically hold 40 lb of nut, why do your buckets only weigh 24#. You have almost doubled any inaccuracy in your non-certified scale by weighing it light.
The issue here is you used a non-certified scale to weigh a certified load, you have no valid/accurate weight therefore no substantial evidence that you got shorted, not your methodology. You are calling into question the honesty of your coalman and the accuracy of a certified scale by weighing 7 tons of coal on a bathroom scale.


I don't want to "slow him down" at all. I just want the weight I ordered within delivery tolerance acceptable in the trade. I doubt that the variations I've measured come within those tolerances.

But why do we even reach that question? He's bringing me a document which purports to be a weight ticket. Is it, or isn't it?
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 9:51 am

stockingfull wrote: Now that my second season's numbers have been crunched, I have concluded that it is.


You're drawing a conclusion on what could be flawed data.

As far as the law is concerned, you should be aware its now your word against his. You can't prove it.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: CapeCoaler On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:04 am

Take the ticket to ‘weights and measures’, the people who certify scales and the like in your town/county/state, and ask them. While you are there tell them about your problem and ask for their advice, do not leave out the fact you used an uncertified bathroom scale and the number of trips you did to arrive at your conclusion. Bring the scale, buckets, 100# of coal and have them check the accuracy of the scale while you are there.
His scale is certified, yours is not.
You have no case legal or otherwise.
If you do not trust someone, common sense says to find another someone.
That is all.
CapeCoaler
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: want AA130
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine BS#4, Harman MKII, Hitzer 503,...
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Stove

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:41 am

stockingfullWhat wrote: I do is weigh every bucket going into my hopper. Dry, of course. Last year, I was about 1000# light on a 6 ton nominal delivery. This year, I have some left over after loading 11,925# on a nominal 7 ton load. I've got a long bin, so I'll weigh the balance when I move it to the other end; then I'll have my data point.

My basic issue has been the difficulty understanding why, if he has scales, he wouldn't weigh it out every time.


OK, the question now is are you using a man size bucket (a 5 gallon bucket) or are you using something less. A 5 gallon bucket of dry rice coal weighs about 40#.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:42 pm

coalkirk wrote:
stockingfullWhat wrote: I do is weigh every bucket going into my hopper. Dry, of course. Last year, I was about 1000# light on a 6 ton nominal delivery. This year, I have some left over after loading 11,925# on a nominal 7 ton load. I've got a long bin, so I'll weigh the balance when I move it to the other end; then I'll have my data point.

My basic issue has been the difficulty understanding why, if he has scales, he wouldn't weigh it out every time.


OK, the question now is are you using a man size bucket (a 5 gallon bucket) or are you using something less. A 5 gallon bucket of dry rice coal weighs about 40#.


Didn't somebody say coal runs 40 ft3/ton? If so, then a 5 gal bucket would weigh 33.5#.

My bin is a reach-over bin about 4' high. I use the pail the previous owner left behind; it carries from 22-27# net, depending on how high I pile it over the rim. I haven't measured its liquid capacity.

Has anybody answered the essential question: whether it's OK in the trade to "ball-park" weights instead of doing a legitimate tare and gross for a delivery like mine?
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 12:55 pm

stockingfull wrote:
coalkirk wrote:
stockingfullWhat wrote: I do is weigh every bucket going into my hopper. Dry, of course. Last year, I was about 1000# light on a 6 ton nominal delivery. This year, I have some left over after loading 11,925# on a nominal 7 ton load. I've got a long bin, so I'll weigh the balance when I move it to the other end; then I'll have my data point.

My basic issue has been the difficulty understanding why, if he has scales, he wouldn't weigh it out every time.


OK, the question now is are you using a man size bucket (a 5 gallon bucket) or are you using something less. A 5 gallon bucket of dry rice coal weighs about 40#.


Didn't somebody say coal runs 40 ft3/ton? If so, then a 5 gal bucket would weigh 33.5#.

My bin is a reach-over bin about 4' high. I use the pail the previous owner left behind; it carries from 22-27# net, depending on how high I pile it over the rim. I haven't measured its liquid capacity.

Has anybody answered the essential question: whether it's OK in the trade to "ball-park" weights instead of doing a legitimate tare and gross for a delivery like mine?


That's a question you'd have to ask the NY attorney general. Personally, it wouldn't ok with me. I watch my truck weighed empty and loaded. I know everytime I get 2 tons of rice coal I'm buying some water too and that's ok. But I would not be OK with being shorted 1000# on an 8 ton load. I don't think you've come even close to proving that you were shorted. Your methodology is flawed. Go complain to the coal dealer with the flimsy evidence you think you have and it will be like the soup nazi on Seinfeld...No coal for you, NEXT.

I have an appointment for my dog next tuesday at the vets. I'm going to take a 5 gallon bucket of dry rice coal, an empty bucket and a 5 lb. bag of flour. The vet has a nice digital scale in the waiting room. After I cailbrate it with the bag of flour, I'll weigh the empty bucket, then the full bucket. I'll report back Tuesday evening.

soup nazi.jpg
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NO COAL FOR YOU! NEXT.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF3000
Coal Size/Type: antrhcite/rice coal

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Richard S. On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 1:35 pm

stockingfull wrote:
Didn't somebody say coal runs 40 ft3/ton? If so, then a 5 gal bucket would weigh 33.5#.


Thats a depends question, your nut coal is going to weigh more than rice by volume. The coal itself is a factor.

Having said that a 5 gallon bucket is slightly larger than 5 gallons, at least the one I have here. Typically when you open them they are not full. I went and tested it just to make sure. The one I used came out to 5 1/3 gallon looking to be leaning towards 1/2. The coal is typically piled higher than the sides when you have buckets so there's your extra 6 pounds. Anyhow it was said its about 40 lb, not that it was 40 lb pound.
Richard S.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Van Wert VA1200
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/Anthracite

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: stockingfull On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 3:06 pm

This is another place where it gets interesting, because I thought I remembered a density thread where the gist was that coal is 40 ft3/ton. If it's different for different grades of coal (which wouldn't surprise me personally), then I guess maybe I didn't take it all in. What my memory tells me I read was that it didn't matter much what grade it was, that it all was about the same density. But some kind of sliding scale to account for the different "packing factor" between grades would make sense to me, with the bigger sizes being less dense than the smaller, i.e., containing more air. But that's a guess.
stockingfull
 
Stove/Furnace Make: Yellow Flame
Stove/Furnace Model: W.A. 150 Stoker Furnace

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Yanche On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 4:46 pm

I suggest you calibrate your scale. You could fill boxes with coal, in estimated amounts like 1 lb., 2 lbs., 4 lbs., 8 lbs. etc. Note the binary progression. Then take them to to post office and mail them to yourself first class mail. The post office will weigh them to the nearest oz. Keep your receipts and now you have government proof of the weights to the nearest oz. Put the boxes on your scale in various combinations and you can now plot the indicated vs. "government standard" weigh. Given this information you can enter the data into an Excel spreadsheet and calculate the mean and standard deviation of the data. Using that you could extrapolate to your weight and the weight of you plus your coal bucket. Now you would have "government" backed data to base your "short weights" claim.

BTY don't use the free scale in the lobby of most post offices. It's not accurate. Most have be damaged by mothers putting their overweight babies on them, right after they left McDonalds!
Yanche
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Alternate Heating Systems S-130
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Pea

Re: Bulk coal delivery protocol?

PostBy: Wood'nCoal On: Wed Apr 30, 2008 6:32 pm

Your results are flawed, your claims have no provable basis, you are "out of luck".

I suggest purchasing a proper scale to weigh your coal bucket and weights to check it's accuracy on a regular basis.

Then try again next year, meticulously record all your data, including the testing of the scale with the dates.

Fill out all records in triplicate, have them notorized and witnessed, verified and encased in clear plastic.

Then take them and place them in the coal stove and watch them burn.

I have never heard of any industry regulated by Weights and Measures that routinely shorts customers on product because "everybody else does it". When W & M comes calling asking why "Great Coal Company" routinely shorts customers on the deliveries and "Great Coal Company" says "Everybody else does it" does that satisfy W & M and they go away?

This whole discussion is ridiculous.
Wood'nCoal
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert