Are you still voting stupidly

Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Thu Jul 28, 2016 10:56 pm

Pacowy wrote:So if Trump is the one saying that immigration law is being ignored, is it still ok for his comments to be racist? Evidence says tightening of border security has been going on for years. Does he get a pass on the exaggeration as well as
the racism?


Mike


First of all "Hispanic" as Mexicans are generally classified is a culture, their race is primarily Caucasian, just as in the US. So there is no racism involved except in the minds of those who don't know better.

If border security has been tightened , where have the 12 million or so illegals come from? Why does the Fed. government take states like Arizona to court for enforcing immigration law? Why does the Border Patrol agree with Trump, and support him?

You know damn well Obama and Hillary support open borders and do or will do all they can to ignore or bypass existing law.
franco b
 
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:23 am

The stench of MA liberalism is worse than smallpox. Sadly, the winds have been blowing from the East and have reached Dalton.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 1:09 pm

Because some of you seem to be unfamiliar with the definition of "race", as in "racism", dictionary.com says:

race

1. a group of persons related by common descent or heredity.

2. a population so related.

3. Anthropology. a.(no longer in technical use) any of the traditional divisions of humankind, the commonest being the Caucasian, Mongoloid, and Negro, characterized by supposedly distinctive and universal physical characteristics.
b.an arbitrary classification of modern humans, sometimes, especially formerly, based on any or a combination of various physical characteristics, as skin color, facial form, or eye shape, and now frequently based on such genetic markers as blood groups.
c. a socially constructed category of identification based on physical characteristics, ancestry, historical affiliation, or shared culture:
Her parents wanted her to marry within her race.
d. a human population partially isolated reproductively from other populations, whose members share a greater degree of physical and genetic similarity with one another than with other humans.

4. a group of tribes or peoples forming an ethnic lineage:
the Slavic race.

5. any people united by common history, language, cultural traits, etc.:
the Dutch race.

franco b, unless you burn all of the dictionaries and can persuade everybody that being "primarily Caucasian" means you are exempt from racism, I'm afraid you're the one here who "doesn't know better". cn, if you can point out any place where I've been inaccurate, please let me know. Beyond that, I don't really see the point of you trying to categorize me as anything. Does that excuse you from dealing with the content of what I say?

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 2:09 pm

So, by that definition I belong to the Irish, English, Scottish race ? So, then I'm no longer Caucasian, but Celtic ? Strange that in my 65 years, I've never seen that race listed on any Federal, or State government, forms. :roll:

But since we (and Trump) are talking about the Federal Government immigration policy and how it relates to a Presidential election, here's the Feds view that Latinos are an "ethic group" not a race.

"............................ The federal government of the United States has mandated that "in data collection and presentation, federal agencies are required to use a minimum of two ethnicities: 'Hispanic or Latino' and 'Not Hispanic or Latino'."[19] The Census Bureau defines "Hispanic or Latino" as "a person of Cuban, Mexican, Puerto Rican, South or Central American or other Spanish culture or origin regardless of race."[19] For discussion of the meaning and scope of the Hispanic or Latino ethnicity, see the Hispanic and Latino Americans and Racial and ethnic demographics of the United States articles.

Use of the word 'ethnicity' for Hispanics only is considerably more restricted than its conventional meaning, which covers other distinctions, some of which are covered by the "race" and "ancestry" questions. The distinct questions accommodate the possibility of Hispanic and Latino Americans' also declaring various racial identities (see also White Hispanic and Latino Americans, Asian Latinos, and Black Hispanic and Latino Americans).

In the 2000 Census, 12.5% of the US population reported "Hispanic or Latino" ethnicity and 87.5% reported "Not-Hispanic or Latino" ethnicity.[19] .............................."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_ ... tes_Census

And what the US Census Bureau says about race.

" ............. What is Race?

The data on race were derived from answers to the question on race that was asked of individuals in the United States. The Census Bureau collects racial data in accordance with guidelines provided by the U.S. Office of Management and Budget (OMB), and these data are based on self-identification.

The racial categories included in the census questionnaire generally reflect a social definition of race recognized in this country and not an attempt to define race biologically, anthropologically, or genetically. In addition, it is recognized that the categories of the race item include racial and national origin or sociocultural groups. People may choose to report more than one race to indicate their racial mixture, such as “American Indian” and “White.” People who identify their origin as Hispanic, Latino, or Spanish may be of any race.

OMB requires five minimum categories: White, Black or African American, American Indian or Alaska Native, Asian, and Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander. ...................... "

http://www.census.gov/topics/population/race/about.html

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 3:55 pm

franco b wrote:
Pacowy wrote:So if Trump is the one saying that immigration law is being ignored, is it still ok for his comments to be racist? Evidence says tightening of border security has been going on for years. Does he get a pass on the exaggeration as well as
the racism?


Mike


First of all "Hispanic" as Mexicans are generally classified is a culture, their race is primarily Caucasian, just as in the US. So there is no racism involved except in the minds of those who don't know better.

If border security has been tightened , where have the 12 million or so illegals come from? Why does the Fed. government take states like Arizona to court for enforcing immigration law? Why does the Border Patrol agree with Trump, and support him?

You know damn well Obama and Hillary support open borders and do or will do all they can to ignore or bypass existing law.


Or, fly them over the boarder on the taxpayers dime. :mad:

http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/ ... igrant-fly

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:08 pm

It is pretty funny to hear you guys declare the federal government to be the ultimate authority on anything. Did you just watch Miracle on 34th Street or something? Of course it doesn't matter to you that the definition you strain to justify is the only one identified as no longer in scientific use.

If, as you say, we're talking about federal immigration policy, why are you relying on the Census? Where in federal immigration policy does it say we are letting in X Caucasians, Y Blacks, Z Mongoloids, etc.? Hint: it doesn't. AFAIK federal immigration policy distinguishes only by country of origin (definition #5 on my list). Sorry, but talking about federal immigration policy brings us right back to imputing - without any factual basis - negative characteristics to people immigrating from one country of origin. Still racism.

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 5:18 pm

franco b wrote:You know damn well Obama and Hillary support open borders and do or will do all they can to ignore or bypass existing law.


What I know is that if you take time to look at the data instead of repeating talk-radio narratives, in recent decades it has been the Republican administrations that have made legal immigration easier (as you might expect, given their "business-friendly" orientation), and the Democratic administrations that have tightened it up (consistent with the interests of organized labor). Illegals by their nature are harder to study, but the best info I've seen is that illegals reached a max under W, and started to go down during his 2nd term as he started tightening up at the borders. Under Obama, those trends continued. I haven't seen #'s for the last 2 years or so.

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:25 pm

Pacowy wrote:
franco b wrote:You know damn well Obama and Hillary support open borders and do or will do all they can to ignore or bypass existing law.


What I know is that if you take time to look at the data instead of repeating talk-radio narratives, in recent decades it has been the Republican administrations that have made legal immigration easier (as you might expect, given their "business-friendly" orientation), and the Democratic administrations that have tightened it up (consistent with the interests of organized labor). Illegals by their nature are harder to study, but the best info I've seen is that illegals reached a max under W, and started to go down during his 2nd term as he started tightening up at the borders. Under Obama, those trends continued. I haven't seen #'s for the last 2 years or so.

Mike

Yep, tightened up all right :roll: http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing- ... ve-actions
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 6:45 pm

Pacowy wrote:It is pretty funny to hear you guys declare the federal government to be the ultimate authority on anything. Did you just watch Miracle on 34th Street or something? Of course it doesn't matter to you that the definition you strain to justify is the only one identified as no longer in scientific use.

If, as you say, we're talking about federal immigration policy, why are you relying on the Census? Where in federal immigration policy does it say we are letting in X Caucasians, Y Blacks, Z Mongoloids, etc.? Hint: it doesn't. AFAIK federal immigration policy distinguishes only by country of origin (definition #5 on my list). Sorry, but talking about federal immigration policy brings us right back to imputing - without any factual basis - negative characteristics to people immigrating from one country of origin. Still racism.

Mike


Those are the Fed's terms and not just the Census Bureau - that's just the first links that came up.

And no matter how you want to spin it, we're talking about Federal matters - immigration - not scientific research about race verse ethnicity or other social groupings.

And you seem to have missed were I bolded and underlined where it says the Feds asked individuals what terms to use, and they chose to use socially accepted terms, not lab-rat jargon.

You seem intent on trying to push the race angle based on a technicality while ignoring the fact that like Franco pointed out, if immigration laws were followed no one could use race as an excuse to allow illegal immigration.

Put the cart behind the horse and it works better. ;)

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 7:43 pm

Nothing I have said favors, excuses or justifies illegal immigration on the basis of race or anything else. Trump used a broad brush to create an unsubstantiated negative portrayal of these people, apparently to lead voters to believe his "wall" proposal was justified and enhance his prospects of being elected. If you keep walking into my yard uninvited, and I say I need to better secure the property line, you asked for it. If I say I need to better secure the property line because you're probably a criminal, drug addict, rapist, etc., I might convince my neighbors to pitch in on a bigger fence, but AFAIK that's slander if I don't know it to be true. I don't think there's any dispute that Trump said what he said. The dictionary says my use of the term "racism" to describe his statement was accurate. If you want to label it something else, you won't change the fact that it was an unsubstantiated negative portrayal of an ethnic group put forward by Trump solely to advance his self-interest. If I slander you and try to profit from it, I think there is a pretty good chance you would find something wrong with that. Try applying that logic here and perhaps you'll see what I'm getting at.

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 8:09 pm

Pacowy wrote:The dictionary says my use of the term "racism" to describe his statement was accurate.


Actually the word you want is xenophobia, which also does not fit, since it implies irrationality. Dictionaries report current usage of words, not whether they are accurate or not. Good luck finding "Hispanic" or "Mexican" listed as a race in an anthropology text.

Borders, language, and culture are the three attributes of a country. Uncontrolled immigration violates all three.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 9:43 pm

If you read the cite it's your definition of race, not mine, that no longer appears in anthropology texts. And your argument about the dictionary self-destructs. Even assuming dictionaries report the "current usage" of words, that reflects the meanings that people intend to convey when they use the words. "Race", as used in the real world by real people, encompasses all of the definitions shown. Nobody put you in charge of deciding which ones are "right". Are you planning to cut out all of the dictionary definitions you personally don't like, or just the ones that might cause you to question things your candidate has said?

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:39 pm

Pacowy wrote:Are you planning to cut out all of the dictionary definitions you personally don't like,


Just the false ones. "Race" Each of the major divisions of humankind, having distinct physical characteristics.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 1:30 am

It speaks for itself that you insist on using only this "retired" definition, and refuse to acknowledge the ones defined by the dictionary to have plain meaning in common use. I have to believe that if somebody called you a likely criminal, drug addict or rapist - without knowing it to be true - that you would find that offensive. Aside from being a statement made by a candidate you prefer, when did that become ok?

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:55 am

Hitler had that view of race also. He mistook cultural difference for race, and where does that leave "ethnicity" if "race" is to replace it? Are Germans, Swedes, Danes, Norwegians, Franks, Dutch, and English all separate races now, or is it just their cultures?

Is the enmity of Jews and Arabs racist?

The second part of your post I don't get the point.
franco b
 
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