Are you still voting stupidly

Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 6:23 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Mike,

You missed Franco's meaning. Try looking up the word "Facetious". ;)

Paul


Kind of ironic for you to refer me to a dictionary when you are the one who doesn't want to accept what it says. If fb thinks I've missed his meaning I'm confident he will tell me.

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:33 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:Mike,

You missed Franco's meaning. Try looking up the word "Facetious". ;)

Paul


Kind of ironic for you to refer me to a dictionary when you are the one who doesn't want to accept what it says. If fb thinks I've missed his meaning I'm confident he will tell me.

Mike

I accept what it says, but you won't accept the context the word was used in.

The real irony is your so caught up in nit picking details to prove your point that you miss what was meant because you want the word to fit only your view. You ignore the fact that in a discussion about the US government policy, the US government's meaning of the word "race" is based on socially accepted use, and is not limited by your view that a modern dictionary definition is the only acceptable form words can be used in. Then, by your standards, the Bible and all classical literature should also be "retired" ?

Step back from the tree and you might just see the forest. ;)

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 8:54 pm

Pacowy wrote:Kind of ironic for you to refer me to a dictionary when you are the one who doesn't want to accept what it says. If fb thinks I've missed his meaning I'm confident he will tell me.


I was being sarcastic over how the word in modern usage has become meaningless. i think you agreed too.

In 1962 a leading anthropologist wrote "The Origin of Races". He believed there were five major races of man. The three we are familiar with plus Australian aborigines and African bushmen.

The book raised a firestorm in the profession because Carleton Coon posited that all races are not of the same age; that some crossed over from Homo Erectus to become Homo Sapient before others. To some this seemed to reinforce the theory that some races were inferior because they were younger. Kind of silly, but political correctness was alive then too, and academia was where it was born.

The story today is that Homo Sapiens came out of Africa and spread worldwide. The jump from Homo Erectus happening only once.

That's fine but I keep tripping over one thing. The fact that the clearly Homo Erectus "Peking Man" of 500 thousand years ago had shovel shaped incisors. A tooth shape seen in modern Chinese and similar peoples and very rare elsewhere, indicating separation of races at least that long and independent crossing to our modern species.

The redefining of race seems to be along political and emotional lines rather than scientific and like the judge said about pornography, "I can't define it but I know it when I see it"
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:29 pm

Paul,

I'm not going to apologize for looking at a dictionary, and I'm not the person who decreed that the definition of race that you advocate no longer is used in anthropology. For the record, the definition of "definition" is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc., as found in dictionaries". It speaks for itself that your position simply wishes away the defined meaning of words, as real people use them in the real world, that would establish accountability for the statements of the candidate you advocate.

Just so we're clear, are you saying that unfounded negative generalizations about blacks would be racist, but about Mexicans they are fine? Or about Mexicans they are not racist, but they are bad? Or something else?

Mike

P.S. The Bible and classic literature should be read, to the extent possible, with an understanding of the meanings of words at the time they were written. That's no excuse for ignoring the evolution of language that has occurred in the interim. Sometimes words fall out of use, sometimes new words come into use, and sometimes words obtain new meanings. It has happened for eons and is the nature of language. It has nothing to do with "newthink" or intellectuals.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Jul 30, 2016 9:43 pm

franco b,

I don't know about "meaningless", but I would certainly agree with "far removed from the origins of mankind" as you have described. With globalization and the greater mixing of peoples from different backgrounds some of the older views have been augmented with newer, more flexible ones. And with the advancement of DNA testing and further mixing, it wouldn't be surprising to see the flexibility increase even further.

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:42 am

Pacowy wrote:Paul,

I'm not going to apologize for looking at a dictionary, and I'm not the person who decreed that the definition of race that you advocate no longer is used in anthropology. For the record, the definition of "definition" is "the formal statement of the meaning or significance of a word, phrase, idiom, etc., as found in dictionaries". It speaks for itself that your position simply wishes away the defined meaning of words, as real people use them in the real world, that would establish accountability for the statements of the candidate you advocate.

Just so we're clear, are you saying that unfounded negative generalizations about blacks would be racist, but about Mexicans they are fine? Or about Mexicans they are not racist, but they are bad? Or something else?

Mike

P.S. The Bible and classic literature should be read, to the extent possible, with an understanding of the meanings of words at the time they were written. That's no excuse for ignoring the evolution of language that has occurred in the interim. Sometimes words fall out of use, sometimes new words come into use, and sometimes words obtain new meanings. It has happened for eons and is the nature of language. It has nothing to do with "newthink" or intellectuals.


Mike,

None of that says that the word race can only be used the way a dictionary says. Dictionaries are not the end-all be-all of word usage. Otherwise, your example of words changing over time would never happen because of the limits of dictionaries.

The proof is as I said, government don't use the word "race"

And you keep ignoring that our governments, at all levels, don't recognize your broad definition.

Laws are written using the strictest accepted form of words. Example, if you look at Federal and State discrimination laws you'd see that they don't use just the word "race" to cover a broad range of groups like your insisting on. They also use words like "color", "national origin", and "ethnic group", which goes counter to your saying the word race ALWAYS covers those. Governments, and the legal field, are just some of the proof that dictionaries are not the only accepted current usage of words.

If you want to discuss anthropology, then using "race" in that context is understandable. Otherwise in a discussion about government policy, there is nothing wrong with using "race" in the context governments use it.

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 11:31 am

Paul,

Communication normally involves responding when reasonable questions are posed. Your nonresponse to my simple question about your position continues the stonewalling you have shown throughout. So, to summarize, in your view the government has the power to void the free speech of citizens based solely on a definition of a term used on a Census form (but no longer in technical use) that in daily use has other recognized meanings. All of this so that your preferred candidate isn't held accountable for unfounded negative generalizations he made about people for his own benefit.

Under a potential President Trump, I guess that means that there wouldn't be any redress of grievances for groups of citizens disadvantaged by such generalizations. Negroes, Mongoloids, and yes, fb, bushmen and aborigines, will all do fine, but public policy will be based on whatever unfounded negative generalizations he feels like making about anyone else to further his agenda. Mexicans and Muslims today, whoever else tomorrow. And he can lock it all in place through an executive order preventing the Bureau of the Census from changing that form.

Awesome. :yearight:

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 12:31 pm

Pacowy wrote:Under a potential President Trump, I guess that means that there wouldn't be any redress of grievances for groups of citizens disadvantaged by such generalizations. Negroes, Mongoloids, and yes, fb, bushmen and aborigines, will all do fine, but public policy will be based on whatever unfounded negative generalizations he feels like making about anyone else to further his agenda. Mexicans and Muslims today, whoever else tomorrow. And he can lock it all in place through an executive order preventing the Bureau of the Census from changing that form.


The issue is open borders and illegal aliens, not racism or generalities about crimes committed. That you find a nit to pick in an effort to make it bleed does not change the issue. The counter claim of racism is just more avoidance. Existing law is evaded and proposals for new immigration law seem to be just making what is happening now legal.

Importing low skill people to a country with disappearing jobs for them is the road to Detroit.

The panacea of education is likewise hollow as it assumes the inherent talent to learn complex skills. To build a bridge or building many more laborers and machine operators are needed than engineers. So the jobs gap remains no matter how many liberal arts students you turn out. Foreign competition still remains even in the highly skilled professions.

Welfarism is also the fast track to drug abuse and crime and ramshackle neighborhoods as people are denied their development as healthy content individuals in the collective sickness of one size fits all. Paradoxically the rise of gangs is actually better opportunity than liberal induced hopelessness.

Progressive liberalism with its robotic newthink philosophy is what we should fear most.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:38 pm

Pacowy wrote:Paul,

Communication normally involves responding when reasonable questions are posed. Your nonresponse to my simple question about your position continues the stonewalling you have shown throughout. So, to summarize, in your view the government has the power to void the free speech of citizens based solely on a definition of a term used on a Census form (but no longer in technical use) that in daily use has other recognized meanings. All of this so that your preferred candidate isn't held accountable for unfounded negative generalizations he made about people for his own benefit.

Under a potential President Trump, I guess that means that there wouldn't be any redress of grievances for groups of citizens disadvantaged by such generalizations. Negroes, Mongoloids, and yes, fb, bushmen and aborigines, will all do fine, but public policy will be based on whatever unfounded negative generalizations he feels like making about anyone else to further his agenda. Mexicans and Muslims today, whoever else tomorrow. And he can lock it all in place through an executive order preventing the Bureau of the Census from changing that form.

Awesome. :yearight:

Mike


I agree, communication does involve a response. It also involves the ability to comprehend. I answered your question early on in this thread.

And, as Franco said, your picking nits. If you weren't you'd see that I mentioned other sources of the limited use of the word race besides the Census bureau - including State governments and the legal profession.

So, here's a question for you. Do you think that all those levels of government across the country and the legal profession wrong so that you can prove your definition of race is the only acceptable use ?

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:52 pm

Here's what I say. End all forms of welfare, and then open the borders. It was only with the coming of the welfare state that we began to clamp down on immigration. Before then you had to want to earn a living in order to come here. You were not coming here for handouts.

But even with the end of welfare, in these days and times you would still have to be on the lookout for the rogue element.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 4:58 pm

Larry, I'd like to see more security than that. In this day and age bad actors may attempt to immigrate for non-financial reasons.

Paul, you are the one who seeks to limit the discussion and silence the people who in real life apply a definition more flexible than yours. If you actually answered my questions previously, would you please indicate which of your posts you're talking about?

franco, I agree that there are important issues about immigration policies and border security, and I have attempted to address them multiple times. Still, I'd rather not have people try to silence discussion of the racism issue, because I believe it is relevant for a couple of reasons. The main one is that I believe that the rhetoric about the Mexican illegals has little to do with the very real economic issues for U.S. workers you describe. Do big manufacturers really hire lots of undocumented aliens to work on U.S. assembly lines at the expense of U.S. workers? Maybe decades ago, but my understanding is enforcement on that got ratcheted up a long time ago. If anyone has hard information to the contrary I'm all ears. The real issue, as you mention in your post, is that segments of U.S. labor are not competitive in world markets. I am especially concerned about your statement that "The panacea of education is likewise hollow as it assumes the inherent talent to learn complex skills". It sounds like you are saying in some segments U.S. labor doesn't have enough "inherent talent". If that is really true, I don't think there is much of any way to avoid harm to their standard of living. In other words, the hostility towards Mexican illegals and talk of a big wall don't address the very real issues facing U.S. labor. To me they appear to be more of a publicity stunt than a bona fide attempt to deal with the issues you described.

The second reason I don't think the racism discussion should be suppressed is the First Amendment. Genuine U.S. citizens don't think public policy should be based on unfounded negative generalizations about groups of people, even if other citizens don't want to characterize it as racism. The latter don't have any authority to silence the former.

Mike
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: franco b On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 8:46 pm

What i am saying is that in any population very few have what it takes to become an engineer or doctor. There are very few jobs for liberal arts. Most people can learn a trade and do very well. I am all for liberal arts, but for other reasons than earning a living since there is exposure to some great minds. The student loan scam is just another cruel criminal racket that inflated costs of education for mostly worthless degrees, plus years of pay back or default. It wrecks lives as so many government programs do.

Government set out to help you own your own home with the result home ownership is at a lower level than ever. I am not worried about Mexicans taking factory jobs from Americans, I am worried about having any jobs at all, with more and more reliance on welfare. The percentage of the population working at a job is lower than ever, as is the job quality.

What is racism? In conformance with your definition it is discrimination or even outright aggression directed toward those considered not to be part of the home group. Differences in language, culture, or differences in physical attributes reinforce it.

Where does it come from? Why is it there? Is it beneficial to a population?

It comes from our instinct to form social groups, family. tribe, and clan. These are all closed, or nearly so units resistant to outsiders. Again it is instinctive, just as a wolf pack is aggressive toward other wolf packs in defense of its territory. Humans are no different. You must be "one of us" to be accepted.

It is there to reinforce the adhesion of the group. We are all in this together.

It is beneficial in that it wards off social change that might be harmful. The insularity of a group is better able to develop technology, or form of government that is advantageous. Those advances , in time spread to other groups as well, if they are of benefit. Insularity also protects against disease, as sadly our Native Americans found out.

So that is why the successful evolution of our species fixed in our instincts so strongly, distrust of the outsider. You can see it in dozens of ways in pride in ones town, race or sports team, or country. The new kid in class, or on the job.

The lone wolf has to hang around the pack for a long time before being finally accepted into the pack at a low rank. Aggression has to ebb first.

Our early immigration laws tried to preserve the existing culture with quotas reflecting the makeup of the existing population to lessen the shock and quicker acceptance of foreigners. That wisdom seems to have been lost.

Today there is supreme confidence that educating people can make one big happy group. Instinct means nothing and is easily overridden, if it exists at all by reason and logic. The Soviet Union thought that too until it collapsed.

It's no more easy than trying to make a cat act like a dog. Each has its own way developed over millions of years, and so do humans. Human nature is not going to change and racism is here to stay whether you like it or not. the conservative and libertarian belief that emphasizes the individual is the best way to work with it. Collectivization will always fail.
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:55 pm

Pacowy wrote: "............................
Paul, you are the one who seeks to limit the discussion and silence the people who in real life apply a definition more flexible than yours. If you actually answered my questions previously, would you please indicate which of your posts you're talking about? ...................."

Mike


Strange that you accuse me of trying to silence people when it is actually you trying to do that by playing the race card and doing the suppressing of a commonly accepted usage of the word race. You will only accept the dictionary definition of the word, insisting that any other definition is not acceptable. But to do so you go outside the context of the discussion just to try to prove your claim of racism. Which I don't think you've yet proved, BTW.

I showed you several times and many examples where race is still used in the form we've been trying to explain to you, and not just socially but officially accepted in a way you say it is not. The first link even explained that the feds used it after checking with people not in the government and it was found to be a scholarly acceptable use.

You want to discount whatever proof I post, if you haven't been able to figure out what I've been saying about Trump and racism by now it's because you don't want to.

Paul
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Re: Are you still voting stupidly

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sun Jul 31, 2016 10:46 pm

Paul,

I have never denied any of the listed definitions (except to note that the one you prefer no longer is used in anthropology). You are the one who has tried to exclude all of the ones other than your preferred one. You can deny that all you want but it's in your posts, and what I've said is in my posts. The questions I have asked of you are in my posts and the answers to those questions are not in your posts, irrespective of how many times you have repeated or restated your attempt to suppress the other definitions.

Mike
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