Outdoor Air reset schedules

Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: cArNaGe On: Sun Apr 27, 2008 10:09 pm

Are they feasible with coal boilers?
How well do they work with coal?
cArNaGe
 

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Freddy On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 7:22 am

Do you have infloor radiant heat? I had it in my head that outdoor thermostats were only used with radiant heat that was in concrete because it takes 24 hours or more to change it's temp. Radiant in wood floors reacts much more quickly in just 2-3 hours. I suppose they'd work with any type of radiant heat, it's just with "in concrete" radiant they are most needed.
I would think the outside thermometers would work just fine with coal.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Sting On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:44 am

ODR control will work with any boiler

Its the first step ( IMO ) to any boiler room control system.

Some here say they run their boilers at 170 or higher because they work better. Well I submit, if your appliance will function at 170 it will also function at 145, but if your lazy or just don't care because your fuel is cheep then yes it will run better hotter because you are creating more draft in a hotter chimney - All old plumbers used to set boilers to run that hot or hotter because they didn't get call backs when it got cold.

The rub comes when you send energy at those temps to cold radiators in mild weather days. You manifest expansion noise and the heat does not stop radiating into the room when the thermostat is satisfied. You now have a huge hunk of iron still radiating and heating the room past set point. So you get temperature swings - you may as well be scorching air and heating the room. Many folks claim hot water heat is inefficient because they are operated with out ODR - ( refine that "the systems are 'not operated' ") and they claim wet systems are uncomfortable because they over run and make noise - suck too much fuel - again because they are not controlled by at least ODR. The next step is to control circulation temperature by room temperature but lets leave that for after I am flamed for this response.

Boiler operation temperature above 140 in relation to outdoor temperature will pay back in fuel savings and room comfort.
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Visit Lehigh Anthracite

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Mon Apr 28, 2008 11:32 pm

So Sting, how's the weather out in Wisconsin. What's coming our way?Good to have an early warning system in place. You have a good idea for the proper combination of inexpensive components that the average do it yourselfer could understand, afford, and install? I understand your point about slowly heating your house by running your zones longer at a cooler temperature. Can you do it without buying a micro-processor based control setup? Solid state instead of digital/analog? :) Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 8:46 am

stokerscot wrote:So Sting, how's the weather out in Wisconsin. What's coming our way?Good to have an early warning system in place.

I am not so sure you would welcome me as a weather sentry – anymore than some welcome my suggestions for primary/secondary heat piping. Since Friday evening we have had Tornados – heavy rain – hi wind – snow – thunder and lightning – warm balmy sunny afternoons – hard frost – sunburn – frost bite – pain and anguish – health and happiness - several or all in no particular order every 24 hours. Remember - This is Wisconsin....

stokerscot wrote:You have a good idea for the proper combination of inexpensive components that the average do it yourselfer could understand, afford, and install?


Sure ! You don't have to spend a dime to do it right. But the explanation is not a two paragraph subject.
Let me collect some thoughts and write back something that doesn't sound stupid or bring out the duck hunters. If my dad could teach me to do it when I had to stand on a chair to reach the controls - anyone can do it!


stokerscot wrote:I understand your point about slowly heating your house by running your zones longer at a cooler temperature. Can you do it without buying a micro-processor based control setup? Solid state instead of digital/analog? :) Scott


Later buddy - I need to do some of that four letter word now --- W O R K
Last edited by Sting on Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:03 am

Hey!!!! No using profanity on the forum . It's a family oriented place :D :D Thanks for the report. Time to close up the chickencoop. :) Scott
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520x3, 700 Van Wert 800
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: EFM 150, Keystoker 150
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: LsFarm On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 9:27 am

Hi Sting,Good morning.
I don't think you have ever been 'flamed' about your ideas.. you have to understand that there are many ways to accomplish a job, to get a boiler to operate satisfactorly.

The above is an example,,outdoor air 'resets' or outdoor weather anticipation systems are in the world of indoor heat relatively new.. Only with the advent of reliable computer systems and the need for antisappation for dropping or rising outdoor temps, mostly with slow-reaction concrete slab radiant heat, has there been any products/controls available that work.

There is certainly nothing wrong with advocating a superior, sensor-laden, computerized, ultra-controling system, but many of us get a headache just reading this sentence. So simple is better for many of us.

I don't believe any of us have 'flamed' you, if you feel I have, I appologize, but you have to be open for all ideas and aspects of solid fuel heating. There are folks here that prefer to not use any electricity for their heat.. others use electricity dependant systems.. I prefer simple relays and systems I trust, and that won't go down because of a voltage surge in the electricity supply. I've had way too many computerized systems fail,, for no apparent reason, so I don't trust them

Now, about your overheating with water, the plain old 'round thermostat' from honeywell, that I installed with my dad in the late 50's has a mechanical 'anticipator' system.. it is designed to shut off the demand for heat before the target temperature is reached.. I remember adjusting them in that first house my dad and I plumbed in 1960. It was a 'modern' slant-fin baseboard NG hot water system, simple single pump and zone valves.

The problem you describe with big heavy steam radiators converted to hot water, or big oversize water radiators, can be an issue in warmer fall and spring weather, but what you advocate to cure the overheating will create under heating during the cold of winter. So owner/operator interaction with the heating system and theory of operation is required.

I think you are VERY interactive with your heat systems,, like to be innovative, and have state-of-the-art controls,, and are easily able to grasp the 'big picture' of the controls, water flow, etc... But many, [I'd say most] people like simple, reliable, set it once and forget it systems.. like an oil or gas system.. They want it that way, their spouses want it that way, and the appliance suppliers want their customers to not have to 'fuss with' the system... The solid fuel business is in constant competition with oil and gas for convienence and 'one touch' operation.. And the suppliers/installers don't want constant phone calls about 'what it's doing'.

So please don't take differing views as a 'flame'. Just realize that there are 'many ways to skin the cat'. Some simple, some complicated, some manual and mechanical, some electronic and automatic... They all have their plusses and minuses.

Now, you advocate a low temperature, constant circulation system for spring/fall,, but in some other threads,, you advocate only high temps for a boiler.. are you adding an expensive mixing valve to create this low temp water from a hot boiler?? or are you saying to lower your boiler temps??

I have used a system like you suggest in a baseboard hot water system, constant circulation, with manual valves to control flow and temps in three zones,, a single thermostat to control the gas burner... It worked well. But it used the big B&G 100 Red pump, that consumed lots of electricity, and ate couplers to the pump.. I replaced those junk couplers every two years when they wore out. The modern 'cartridge pump' hadn't been invented yet. And the lower temps caused problems with the NG boiler, it had condensation problems because NG makes plenty of water when it burns..

But an anticipator in the thermostat was still needed to prevent overshooting of target temperature. And once adjusted, it worked well, but I sure wouldn't want to try to explain how/why/when/ and what to monitor to make that system work for someone else.. I'd recommend a simpler system, more reliable, fewer headaches.

Greg L
LsFarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Self-built 'Big Bertha' SS Boiler
Baseburners & Antiques: Keystone 11, Art Garland

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 10:52 am

Please don't feel that I am picking things apart here Greg

I just found a break while waiting for an update and would like to respond to a couple points - yet I look at my response and it appears "snippy" - I hate that but its a simple way to address a couple of points. So look at me - I am trying to be simple - don't hate me now for it..

LsFarm wrote:Hi Sting,Good morning.
I don't think you have ever been 'flamed' about your ideas.. you have to understand that there are many ways to accomplish a job, to get a boiler to operate satisfactorly.


OK Flamed is a harsh description of views that have differed from some things I have made lame attempts to describe. Yet if we keep an open mind - well I see Scott ( a used to be "overheater" ) is coming into the light!!!! That makes me smile
when I write stuff about controls that are less than simple at first glance let this float through your mind:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz3qDu0WemM


When I have a REALLY bad day I watch an unrated version


FREE YOUR MIND AND USE IT WHILE ITS OPEN...


LsFarm wrote:The problem you describe with big heavy steam radiators converted to hot water, or big oversize water radiators, can be an issue in warmer fall and spring weather, but what you advocate to cure the overheating will create under heating during the cold of winter. So owner/operator interaction with the heating system and theory of operation is required.


mild weather overheating will always be a problem if the boiler is set to produce to its full potential all season - but the mechanic is less likely to be called for this than when the house is cold on a Saturday night in the dead of winter.

LsFarm wrote:I think you are VERY interactive with your heat systems,, like to be innovative, and have state-of-the-art controls,, and are easily able to grasp the 'big picture' of the controls, water flow, etc... But many, [I'd say most] people like simple, reliable, set it once and forget it systems.. like an oil or gas system.. They want it that way, their spouses want it that way, and the appliance suppliers want their customers to not have to 'fuss with' the system... The solid fuel business is in constant competition with oil and gas for convienence and 'one touch' operation.. And the suppliers/installers don't want constant phone calls about 'what it's doing'.


My system ---- you would laugh -- its a pile of junk - from the solid fuel boiler to the pumps the pipe and the controls - its all cast off from jobs that I salved for the scrap. The only pieces I bought new was the Draft Inducer (because I hate to clean chimneys tall enough to bring me that close to God!) and some fittings that I lacked. And except of the fuel fill and ash removal - its "no fuss" but the fuel is enough of an issue that should the emergency room plot not to release me for a few days - there are two well marked switches to throw and one valve to twist and its back to "NO FUSS" ng operation.

LsFarm wrote: Now, you advocate a low temperature, constant circulation system for spring/fall,, but in some other threads,, you advocate only high temps for a boiler.. are you adding an expensive mixing valve to create this low temp water from a hot boiler?? or are you saying to lower your boiler temps??


I believe you are referring to my stern advice to never operate a boiler below 140 - as the guy called in with the torch to make way for the new equipment --- when the old stuff rots before its life cycle should have expired -- I think I can stand on that soap box.

LsFarm wrote: The modern 'cartridge pump' hadn't been invented yet. And the lower temps caused problems with the NG boiler, it had condensation problems because NG makes plenty of water when it burns..


Free your mind --- we now have pumps that don't suck the power meter off the wall - P/S loop piping allow you to run the boiler above the condensing threshold and circulate very low energy liquid from a manual mix valve that cost only a couple bucks to install -

LsFarm wrote:But an anticipator in the thermostat was still needed to prevent overshooting of target temperature. And once adjusted, it worked well, but I sure wouldn't want to try to explain how/why/when/ and what to monitor to make that system work for someone else.. I'd recommend a simpler system, more reliable, fewer headaches.

Greg L


Simple only means more interaction to achieve best most efficient most economical control -

is that really simpler ???? Yes if your fuel is pennies a pound. Why bother! Crank it up and pour me another!

BUT...

At some point you decide you don't want to control 14 things twice a day to make "best power"
Manual control by a human - thats how steam locos pulled long lines of cars - the engineer was the "ECM" - today the engineer in a train of similar load is a "cab driver" Manual control - thats how the Baltimore's heated mansions with hot water. Full time staff.

simple - I make some things simple by technology and its my choice to leave some things to the human touch...Some have said it would be impossible to debug a multi pump control on a Saturday night when the house goes cold in the dead of winter.. I might ask how different would it be if that control were manual? You find the problem and if piped for contingency - you "valve over" and wait for Monday.
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: cArNaGe On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:46 pm

The reason I asked is I visit another forum where this one guy is an Oil man.
Here is what he posted last week.


When I bought the new house I was disappointed at the efficiency of the oil-fired heating system that came in it. But, then again.....I knew someone who could make some minor "changes". The old boiler was a Dunkirk Empire water boiler with a Beckett burner and tankless hot water coil heating 3 zones of baseboard in a 2100 sq. ft. cape. For the season of 2006-2007, it chugged through about 1500 gallons of oil. And at prices nearing $4.00/gal, I knew something had to be done. So, last October I ripped out that turd and installed a new system. This winter was significantly colder than last year, and from what I can tell, I have cut roughly 35% off of my oil bill. The new system I selected and installed was a Pensotti triple pass low mass oil boiler with a Riello oil burner and a Crown MegaStor 53 gallon indirect water heater. The baseboard zones are controlled with Taco zone valves using a single Grundfos pump, while the indirect HWT uses an identical pump for the heat exchange coil. What really makes the whole thing worth while is the installation of a Taco PC700 outdoor air reset control. It reduces the boiler output temperature according to the outdoor air temperature, based on information you program in. It is relatively easy to install with the complete Taco package (mostly low voltage wiring). The oil bill went down and I have more than enough hot water.

Anyways, here are the pics (I still have some odds and ends to finish)
Attachments
heat.jpg
(79.63 KiB) Viewed 22 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]4147[/nepathumb]
morepics2010.jpg
(80.47 KiB) Viewed 14 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]4148[/nepathumb]
morepics2012.jpg
(79.75 KiB) Viewed 12 times
View: New PagePopup • Select:BBCode
[nepathumb]4149[/nepathumb]
cArNaGe
 

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: cArNaGe On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:48 pm

So he claims to have saved alot of coin by installing this new more efficient system. He claims the outdoor air reset is the big factor. I don't see why it wouldn't work. I see where folks post that they turn down the temp on their boiler for summer operations. Why not have a control system to do it according to temps outside? Just a thought. I was wanting opinions.
cArNaGe
 

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: billw On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:25 pm

1500 gallons in a 2100 sq ft house? Mine is approx 2400 plus I heat an additional 1200 basement shop on the weekends and go through only 800 gallons. Homeowner might want to invest in some windows and insulation.
billw
 
Stove/Furnace Make: EFM 520
Stove/Furnace Model: GOODBYE OIL COMPANY

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Freddy On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 4:43 pm

He said he'd knocked 35% off the 1,500 with the upgrade. That brings him down to 975. Not so bad. Maybe a bit high, but if he has 3 teenage girls taking 1/2 hour showers he's doing just fine now. Now... for ease of math let's say it's 1,000. At today's price that's 4 grand for oil next season. He might want to consider coal!

I don't think the outdoor reset is a BIG factor. The Pensotti is.
Freddy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 130 (pea)
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Reading piece o' junk in the barn (rice)
Coal Size/Type: Pea size, Superior, deep mined

Re: Outdoor Air reset schedules

PostBy: Sting On: Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:39 pm

everyone has their favorites :)

This is simply my favorite choice for ODR on a single boiler system



expand this link to section B3 Advanced and note a suggested ODR curve.
http://tekmarcontrols.com/literature/acrobat/d256.pdf

You can do this manually - you don't need this control, but it sure makes heating life simple. :roll:
Last edited by Richard S. on Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: <removed dead link>
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Visit Lehigh Anthracite