LL AA-220 Relocation

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: swyman On: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:18 am

lsayre wrote:
swyman wrote:So I shouldn't waste my money on one of those self learning multi flow units? Just buy a correctly sized single speed?


What can it learn? It isn't monitoring the only thing that really matters, I,E., temperatures. What then is left for it to "learn"? Only pressure remains. They can and do maintain constant pressure. As system friction head decreases with the opening of more and more zone valves, they can speed up to restore pressure to a constant level. There is no learning required in this. And in the end it is not much different from the end users perspective than the far older method of simply letting friction head changes naturally increase or decrease the flow as required.

Billions of dollars are being spent on "artificial intelligence" and it has not yet been achieved at the level of the multi-million dollar super computer. How much of it can they jam into the electronics of a $175 circulator?


Good point! All I know is that I have been doing just about everything wrong......as far as maximizing efficiency. It worked but I think I can make things a whole lot better. Just want to do it right this time and with the help from you guys here I know I will be able!
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

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Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Oct 16, 2016 9:33 am

For the two zones in the house, that is an easy decision - run the circulators only when there are heat calls.

For the barn, it depends on a few things. If you want to make domestic hot water in the barn with a heat exchanger, you would need to keep that loop hot all the time (or have an manual override to turn the pump on when you want hot water out there). Another thing to consider is how fast do you want that modine to respond. If the loop is hot all the time, the modine will put out hot air as soon as the fan starts. If you start the circulator on demand, it will take a little while for everything to get hot and for the fan to turn on. Either way will keep the area at the thermostat setting, but if you can't stand waiting 1 minute or so for the modine to turn on, you would need to keep the loop hot. For me it would depend on how well insulated the pipes are going to the barn.

Think of it this way, if you pump about 4 gallons per minute through that barn loop with a 2 degree drop, that will take about 10 lbs of coal per day to maintain. Considering that the boiler is going to burn at least that much just keeping the fire alive, that isn't bad. If you see a 5 degree drop through the loop, that takes about 24 lbs of coal.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: swyman On: Mon Oct 17, 2016 12:32 am

[quote="Rob R."]. if you can't stand waiting 1 minute or so for the modine to turn on, you would need to keep the loop hot. For me it would depend on how well insulated the pipes are going to the barn.

I will just have my truck and Bobcat out there so time to warm up is no big deal. The main reason I want to heat is for the Bobcat, I don't like running my machine when it's in the coldest days of winter and it sits in outdoor temps. The hydraulics are so slow and is just hard on the system. When the boiler is in that barn I had no way to regulate the temp unless I would have made a small insulated room for the boiler but otherwise it kept it at a unregulated 55-60* which is way to warm! I would like to keep it at 40* and have all that boiler heat in the house. I have Thermopex for that run which is very well insulated so there should be no problem with freezing and it should cycle enough to keep things in check. Thanks for the numbers it would take to run that loop, I think that would be very tolerable. The nice thing is if that loop takes to much to heat I could always shut it down but I firmly believe this system will be a totally different animal than last year. It's looking like I will probably have to run it in it's current location for a month or so till the addition is complete but once it's ready I will make the move immediately. Waiting for colder weather before I fire it up and looks like it's coming in a few weeks!
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Oct 17, 2016 5:58 am

It would be simple enough to hook up the barn circulator with a thermostat and see how it works. You can always change it to run all the time.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: swyman On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:11 am

Well here is the latest from today. I never knew they had these things called Form-A-Drain. They are a hollow form with slots on one side for water to drain into and flow like a tile. I think these would be better than a tile because it's right on the bottom of the footer on both sides....brilliant idea! In talking with my builder to day, looks like I will have to scrap my whole tote in the basement idea. There just won't be enough room for the size door I would need to get the tote inside. SO....once again the wheels are turning. For right now I may just lower a tote down into the stairway area (with steps removed of course) and can scoop out of there once a day to top off the boiler hopper until I come up with a final plan. There are many options and I have plenty of time to think about it so keep the ideas coming! Supposed to rain tomorrow and builder says he will probably pour the footers in the rain. Guess that's how they build bridges?
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swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: Pacowy On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 12:50 am

What about just using a chute to fill totes in basement?

Mike
Pacowy
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: H.B. Smith 350 Mills boiler/EFM 85R stoker
Coal Size/Type: Buckwheat/anthracite

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:26 am

We have a large barn operation 350' from the house and there is no way I would run underground. I am amazed that this is considered a viable option by all. I have a Pocono that runs on superlow and in place instant generation of hot water.
Last edited by coalnewbie on Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Invader 2
Baseburners & Antiques: Wings Best, Glenwood #8(x2) Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice,
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:28 am

coalnewbie wrote:We have a large barn operation 350' from the house and there is no way I would run underground. I am amazed that this is considered a viable option by all. I have a Pocono that run on superlow and in place instant generation of hot water.


What's the issue? As long as it's done correctly.
hotblast1357
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260
Coal Size/Type: anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

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Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:31 am

Complexity is never your friend and we have discussed this on this board before ... over and out.

I don't believe that is legal....and it certainly isn't safe. The smaller hot air stokers get away with a direct vent because they hold a very small amount of coal in the burn chamber at any given moment, and the fire goes out the second the fan stops, thus there is no carbon monoxide created to get into the house. With a boiler you have a huge amount of coal in the burn chamber and it is not dependent on a fan to keep it burning. If the power goes out you will immediately start pumping carbon monoxide into the structure.


Such a smart man ...
Last edited by coalnewbie on Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Invader 2
Baseburners & Antiques: Wings Best, Glenwood #8(x2) Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice,
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:48 am

coalnewbie wrote:We have a large barn operation 350' from the house and there is no way I would run underground. I am amazed that this is considered a viable option by all. I have a Pocono that run on superlow and in place instant generation of hot water.


There is a difference between viable and ideal. In this case the piping was already in the ground, and he already owns the boiler. What solution would you suggest?

I do not advocate for remote installs if they can be avoided, but running a set of pex lines to a shop in order to get heat and economical hot water without requiring a second heating system seems like a compromise worth considering.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: swyman On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:51 am

coalnewbie wrote:Complexity is never your friend and we have discussed this on this board before ... over and out.


The underground system was installed when I purchased my OWB and has served me very well. My cousin became a Leisure Line dealer and talked me into switching over to coal. Bought a boiler, rerouted underground PEX into barn and installed boiler out there thinking it would operate just like my OWB and the mess would be in the barn. My consumption and output was not where I expected it to be and found out a single loop system 220' from the house is not a very efficient system but I got away with it using the forest eater. Through the members knowledge on this site and studying recommended books on Hydronics I am going to set myself up for victory.....so in a nutshell, simplicity in my situation is not my friend!
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: coalnewbie On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:56 am

Healthy disagreements are the basis of a sound society. A barn to me means animals and economy of hot water for most operations means nothing as they do not use a lot of it. Also most barns are cool places and for most animals that is much healthier. A POH is great for warming stuff up like hands, boots, gloves. I am a great fan of radiant heat but of course HW radiators can do that too. Or is this "barn" really a man cave for escaping from the wife. That is fine also. :D
coalnewbie
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL AnthraKing 180K, Pocono110K,KStokr 90K, DVC
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Invader 2
Baseburners & Antiques: Wings Best, Glenwood #8(x2) Herald 116x
Coal Size/Type: Rice,
Other Heating: Heating Oil CH, Toyotomi OM 22

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:01 am

I thought it was a shop? perhaps I misunderstood. To Simons point, washing and working on a horse is a different story than a bulldozer, truck, etc.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: swyman On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:07 am

Pacowy wrote:What about just using a chute to fill totes in basement?

Mike


I did think if that while we were measuring the current tote I am burning out of right now but the problem I have is the totes would be cut into pieces to ever get them out and if that's the case I just assume build a bin. My whole thought process was if I could have left them in the totes and just lower them in the basement I would not have to handle the material twice. I will try it by just lowering one into the Bilco door area and scoop daily out of there. One tote should last me a month under normal weather conditions. I guess there are not too many options, just have to figure out where to build a bin? One other avenue I just thought of is weather or not I have to have a entry door to the basement from the Bilco door. Without a door I could use my plan of bringing in the totes but if allowed I would have to figure out a way to insulate the Bilco. Anyone know if code requires a entry door?
swyman
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Leisure Line AA-220

Re: LL AA-220 Relocation

PostBy: Rob R. On: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:10 am

A bilco is going to leak warm air like a sieve without a proper entry door.

I would build a bin with the idea that someday you may want to fill the hopper with an auger - so make sure there is a line of sight between the two.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Visit Leisure Line