Heating Large Shop in Alaska W/ Sequoyah Outdoor Boiler

 
AlaskaCoal1
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Post by AlaskaCoal1 » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 1:18 am

i have not hung the heaters as of yet. I have them in my garage but have not hung. So far all I have done is the pipe buried and ready to set the boiler.

Garage doors have not been insulated yet... still have the final ceiling insulation to do... Walls are all good just trying to get the design right so I can buy the stuff and get this in before it gets to cold.

I will give the book a look. I also read some articles on http://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/technical-magazine.. these are great short articles with a wealth of information.

Would you say that it would be a good idea to keep the pipe size up inside the barn to ensure the BTU availability is ready and waiting


 
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Post by waldo lemieux » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 8:19 am

Why on gods green earth would you put the boiler outside when you have a shop that size? Id even consider using two smaller boilers and not go underground at all. :gee:

 
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 8:30 am

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:Would you say that it would be a good idea to keep the pipe size up inside the barn to ensure the BTU availability is ready and waiting
If each 70K BTUH rated heater is fed independently, then each can be supplied with 70,000 BTUH via 1" I.D. pipe. If however you are running them in series on a single long loop, then 1-1/4" I.D. may suffice, but marginally. In series 1-1/4" I.D. will likely be capable of delivering about 135,000 BTUH (admittedly enough to meet your heat loss calculations), but not (in my opinion at least) 210,000 BTUH (which is the full output capability of 3 x 70K BTUH heaters in series).

For 20 degrees Delta-T and initially 180 degree F. supply water, 135,000 BTUH for the case of all heaters in series requires 13.5 GPM flow. 210,000 BTUH would require 21 GPM flow. I don't think 1-1/4" I.D. is rated up to 21 GPM.

For heaters supplied independently via zones with zone circulators, 7 GPM through each zone loop should deliver 70,000 BTUH with 20 degrees Delta-T. 1" I.D. pipe should handle 7 GPM flow.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 8:49 am

If you are starting with a 300,000 BTUH input capable boiler, and you apply typical "real world" efficiency and then the requisite solid fuel boiler "pick-up" factor to it your reliable sustained output of BTUH will be on the order of:

300,000 BTUH input x 0.65 (65% "real world" efficiency expectation) = 195,000 BTUH output

195,000 BTUH / 1.3 (to account for the 30% typical and requisite pick up factor) = 150,000 BTUH output

You can only reliably count upon 150,000 BTUH from your boiler, so you are (perhaps marginally) within the range of 1-1/4" primary loop capability, though you are fully within the calculated range of the buildings heat loss calculations, so you can make it work.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 9:08 am

A manifold with 1" pex to each Modine should be fine.

I am glad I do not have to man that boiler in -40 temps.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 9:29 am

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:i have not hung the heaters as of yet. I have them in my garage but have not hung. So far all I have done is the pipe buried and ready to set the boiler.

Garage doors have not been insulated yet... still have the final ceiling insulation to do... Walls are all good just trying to get the design right so I can buy the stuff and get this in before it gets to cold.

I will give the book a look. I also read some articles on http://www.caleffi.com/usa/en-us/technical-magazine.. these are great short articles with a wealth of information.

Would you say that it would be a good idea to keep the pipe size up inside the barn to ensure the BTU availability is ready and waiting
========================================================================================

About your system,

The pipe size will take care of the air handlers the issue is
the need for storage of preheated hot water.

Sadly your going to have to add a lot of additional water storage
in the shop to make up for the loss that must be factored in as
Larry has said and described to you in detail.

Did you consider using steam heat and hanging radiators in the ceiling at any point?

Or Had you given any preliminary thought at all to hanging hot water radiators
in the ceiling of the shop along the exterior walls to heat it?

I am not trying to make your job harder to do I am just thinking out loud about
how best to help you as you have a huge mass of air to heat and using the
radiators would be a passive way to do it with one circulator.

If you invest in the two books I talked about it will show you how it is done and
done quickly with hot water and steam radiators.

You may have to invest in a very very large hot water storage tank with a second circulator
to feed water to the air handlers.

You may need another 1,500 gallons of water storage or more now with your
system as it now stands do to the standby losses and the lower efficiency of the
Sequoya.

The hot water recovery time is the issue for you and my suggestion about filling the boiler half full of firebrick may be the only way to bypass the need for storage as the thermal mass in the boiler filled half way or more in total fire box volume of firebrick will only help you.

You may end up running the sequoya the year round to keep up with the heating demand as the air handler will continue to try to heta the space with cooler/cold water.

If you look at the Garn Units you will see they use a cast firebrick combustion tunnel to burn small amounts of wood to heat the huge mass of water in the tanks of the 3 models

Filling the firebox with fire brick like I did with mine exactly how I described will help you and you can always add a storage tank and a second circulator loop from storage to the air handlers eventually.

I have to go now.

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 9:44 am

FWIW: Height of rise is totally meaningless and irrelevant in a closed loop system, wherein there is no height head, and only friction head to be concerned with.

And your heat loss calculated BTUH demand should only be at its maximum for a handful of days out of the typical heating season. My "Rule of 2.5" suggests that average heating season demand is maximum divided by 2.5.

For a max of 150,000 BTUH output required, your average daily building heat load requirement for a typical heating season should be in the ballpark of about 60,000 BTUH output. On most days that should leave plenty of margin to provide for DHW.


 
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Post by Rob R. » Mon. Oct. 03, 2016 10:15 am

lsayre wrote:FWIW: Height of rise is totally meaningless and irrelevant in a closed loop system, wherein there is no height head, and only friction head to be concerned with.

I hope there is a plan to separate the boiler from the shop system with a heat exchanger, otherwise the entire system will be unpressurized, and that makes pumping to a Modine high above the boiler a challenge.

 
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Post by AlaskaCoal1 » Wed. Oct. 05, 2016 12:32 am

Thanks for the info,,, this is the only site that has decided to help tackle this problem.
Answer to questions... outdoor boiler was choses to keep the mess of wood and coal out of the building and to assist in satisfying the insurance company. Also by doing so it allowed me to put in a wood/coal stove to assist with heating while I am in the shop.

As far as separating the systems that was not in the original design. Plan was to hang the heaters at about the 10 foot mark with the inlet pipe coming in around 18 inches to 2 feet inside the shop. the overall water level should be somewhere around the 5' mark meaning I would have to raise the water approx 5' to the horizontal water lines. This should still put me below the margin of -negative pressure thus eliminating boiling within the system.

My current plan is to run a 1 1/4 pipe to a manifold with 1x zone valve for all the heaters, another zone valve for DHW and maybe a third capped zone in the even I ever want to go outside and pipe residual heat to my home ( does not really need it but it was a thought,)

Thermal storage was an option as a way to dump heat during times of reduced loads plus this would allow me to just add one circulator for the zones with shorter pipe lengths thus reducing head and overall cost.

The three heaters would be piped in parallel on a reverse loop system to assist in balancing the system.

I have seen multiple ways to calculate head but one way is to take total pipe length of longest loop x 1.5 x .4

Also thinking that maybe a variable speed circulator might be what is needed to assist in energy savings,

 
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lsayre
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Post by lsayre » Wed. Oct. 05, 2016 7:59 am

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:I have seen multiple ways to calculate head but one way is to take total pipe length of longest loop x 1.5 x .4
Probably you merely made a typo, but your .4 should be .04. I could easily be mistaken, and others here will hopefully jump in to correct me if I am, but to my (admittedly limited) knowledge, this kludge (rule of thumb) formula is only useful for estimating friction induced head when using nominal 3/4" I.D. pipe. Friction head through 1-1/4" piping will be much less than through 3/4". Ditto 1".

 
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Post by AlaskaCoal1 » Sun. Oct. 09, 2016 2:04 am

Thanks again to all the help... I have racked my brain on a way to do this as an open loop system from lowering the heaters etc..... it can be done but not really sure how to calculate the additional head since it will have to lift the water and that might just add very expensive interior alaska electricity negating the initial cost savings.

SO...I think I have decided that the best way to do this is to pipe the boiler which is an open loop not pressurized to a heat exchanger. Then from there go with a closed loop system. I have most of the parts manifolds zone valves etc from another property I own that is not using hydronics anymore.

How do you figure the head loss of the heat exchangers .... some of the ones I have found have the specs some do not and google does not always render the results. I see there is quite a range on the head loss. This will affect both the open loop side as well as the closed loop side.

Also since I figure the boiler is a 300K I figure 50% efficiency just to be safe. if it is more then so be it. So like suggested I am only planning on 150K. The previous owner said he ran 170 degree water due to the fact that the coal would continue to heat and running up to 180 or 190 would result in boil overs at the boiler.

I would like to transfer as much of the heat to the inside as possible so I have it available if needed. According to the TACO worksheet the 1 1/4 pipe can transfer 150K but at delta T =20 would take 15 GPM that exceeds 1/1/4 but at delta T =30 it can be done at 10GPM which can be done according to the calculation. (F= Q/(500*delta T))

I was wrong about the heaters they are more like 40K units and with water temp factors they will be like 35K units at 4 GPM each. Also my base board heaters will produce another 35K at the 1-4 GPM rate. so with the heaters I have they will not match the coldest day heat load but as has been stated that is not every day and I do have a hand fired coal stove in the shop to help out... this should at least keep it above freezing and close... -30 outside and even 40 to 50ish in not bad... I have a LOCKE 500 I am trying to get up and running or will put my TLC2000 in there for those really bad days... not where I live so it does not have to be like my house at 70 24/7. Also thinking of just letting the baseboard heaters run all of the time since they are low flow and should not require a large circulator... In alaska there are very few winter days that some heat is not needed anyways and they would most likely run anyways... then zone the hanging heaters since they pull more electricity.... ELECTRICITY here is out of site.

Here are the questions--- sorry for the long post.

---Since the close loop and open loop are separated the flows can be different correct???? I understand that If I exceed drastically then the temps will suffer but at least the circulators will not cavitate.

Hence 10 GPM to Xchanger and three 4 gpm hanging heaters and a small loop of baseboard heaters at 1-4 GPM.

If all of this is correct then the HEAD LOSS is the only thing I am having trouble with to ensure I have the right pumps to accommodate. I can figure the rest of the head loss but not all xchangers give you the loss or the psi operating .... any rules of thumb or ways to calculate.

Also other specs -- the boiler has a Star 21F three speed and I have another Grundfos UP 26-64F single speed if needed. Hoping that the head on the closed loop side would allow for a variable speed circulator like the bumble bee. low cost to operate.

This head loss crap is the real design hang up I have. I also have a plumber that I work with that works all day with large commercial steam system and he is coming by so I will keep you posted on what he says.

Finally... I have not looked into steam... seems way above my ability.... second the radiators .... where do you find them... have seen NONE here in alaska ... used or otherwise. --- third I have not read the books yet only califfee idronics.... working, keeping up with daily chores and this LARGE project consumes me... be glad when I can sit back drink a beer and enjoy.... there comes a point when a project loses it glimmer and this one is getting real close to that... with final insulation to be complete... hydronics and electricity to hang before I can start to organize the man cave and enjoy.

really want to get this up and running as it is getting cold here.

Thanks for all the help.... I hope that I can one day be as helpful

 
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Post by AlaskaCoal1 » Sun. Oct. 09, 2016 2:15 am

lsayre wrote:Can we presume that (seeing as you are in Alsaka) your area is hit annually with about 12,000 to 13,000 HDD's (Heating Degree Days)? If so, then your heating demand will be roughly twice the demand of most of us here on this forum. Just tossing this out there so others who have solved similar heating matters know to roughly double everything.
More like 16K according to the maps. Mild winters last two years--- only had about 3 total weeks of -40 but the average day was not uncommon to be -10 with a high in the low single digits IF that. -20 degree morning are quite common --- great thing is when it climbs to the teens you feel like you do not even need a coat.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Oct. 09, 2016 7:27 am

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:I have racked my brain on a way to do this as an open loop system from lowering the heaters etc..... it can be done but not really sure how to calculate the additional head since it will have to lift the water and that might just add very expensive interior alaska electricity negating the initial cost savings.
The circulators don't care about how high the water has to go, only about the length of the loop. Take a look at the specs for those hanging heaters - some of them need a pretty high temperature and flow rate to hit their advertised output number. If the inside of the shop is all one large area, you don't need a zone valve for each of the heaters. One conventional circulator for the hanging heaters and an ECM circulator for the baseboard radiation sense to me - let the baseboards heat 24/7 and the hanging heaters come on as needed.

Talk to your local wood boiler guys - they will likely recommend a ~80 plate heat exchanger. Oversizing the heater exchanger a little won't hurt anything, except your wallet.

 
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Post by lsayre » Sun. Oct. 09, 2016 7:47 am

If I was on a hillside, and I was "pumping" (I.E., moving, as in relocating) water from the bottom of the hill to the top of the hill, which is a small hill with 50 ft. of rise, and at the top of the hill the water was discharging, then I would have to account for friction head (pipe induced friction) plus 50 additional ft. of height head.

If however I was on the same hillside, and I was "circulating" water to the top of it (50 ft. up) and then back down to the "circulator" again, I will for this scenario only encounter friction head. There is no height induced head for a circulator (even if the pipe goes straight up and then turns and comes straight back down again).

You only have friction head. See this thread to solve your friction head mystery:
Circulator: System Head Vs GPM Spreadsheet W/Graphed Output

 
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Post by McGiever » Sun. Oct. 09, 2016 8:09 am

If his system is a "OPEN LOOP" then he is "PUMPING"
Only possiblle to only "circulate" when having a "CLOSED LOOP"

"OPEN LOOP" systems are critical of both "HEAD" + "FRICTION" :)


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