Heating Large Shop in Alaska W/ Sequoyah Outdoor Boiler

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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Thu. Dec. 01, 2016 3:47 pm

Look at the smilie !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will leave it for the OP to judge on my post being a negative or positive to his issue.
I did not post it as a negative..
I posted the reality of the situation . :) :) :) :) :)


 
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Post by freetown fred » Thu. Dec. 01, 2016 4:09 pm

If you would read posts people make, you would see I stated I saw the smilie. Yep, AC can judge on his own.
freetown fred wrote:"If that surprises & shocks you or depresses you..
Then you haven't read many threads on this forum. :)"------------that was # 1 that kinda rubbed me--sorry if I misinterpreted. Yes I saw the smilie. I don't think I was degrading--just pointing something out. Point being, I think the poster (AC) has really done his homework & is looking for some positive feed back.

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Thu. Dec. 01, 2016 7:32 pm

I think once you get up to temp the massive heat sink you have...
The insulation will keep the temp quite well...
But you must maintain the heat input...
Or you will have this roller coaster ride of shoveling coal...
Get that sucker up to 70* and keep it there...
Then see what the coal consumption is...
The boiler is out side now correct...
Is it protected from the cold...
At -20* it needs a happy place too... ;)
Lots of heat loss there if not well protected...
The underground lines are not melting snow...
That is the other place for a large heat loss...

 
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Post by AlaskaCoal1 » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 2:07 am

CC-- I believe you are right about overcoming the mass and things should then be better... fingers crossed. I cringe when I think about the cost of that endeavor... coal will be the cheap part ... my electric bill is what worries me.. 22 cents a KWh.... OUCH. To answer your other questions ... boiler is outside .. only protection it has is the insulation around and the metal covering.. Maybe it would have benefited to build a small shelter to turn my OWB into a indoor model. Underground pipe has no snow loss... it is the central boiler pipe with the spray foam interior. I am going to take the advice of Izaharis and line the thing with firebrick to help produce a heat sink and reflect some of that heat.. also been researching how to simulate the same draft that is produced in my home coal stove that heats my house. That will be another topic once my manometer arrives... I am very new to coal still... just started burning 2 years ago--- things are going much better in my house now--- only restarted the fire three times and that is due to us being gone longer than the fire can be expected to last in my Harman TLC. I just thought the boiler would be easy... NOPE... just another learning curve... not to mention the hydronic learning curve. This stuff really interest me though.

WW-- no harm no foul, but I have done tons of research but all this is new to me and I am very appreciate to all who have helped and provide input.. I take what everybody says to heart. I also realize that I can not directly compare coal usages just the initial trend of the boiler made me scratch my head. NOW how to overcome that massive cold to get it to where it needs to be so I can test the system. As far as BTUs of Usibelli coal it is 7500 per pound if you could burn all the volatiles I would go up considerably... my boiler looks like a civil war train at times. I will keep you posted but it may be slow going due to my work schedule and the 80 mile trip one way to get materials... oh by the way seems all the businesses except lowes close at 430 or 500 and are not open on Saturday... logistics is the real time killer in this neck of the woods.

 
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Post by Olllotj » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 7:42 am

How about a torpedo heater to help for a day or so?

 
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Post by Rick 386 » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:50 am

I tend to agree with CC and Windy about the HUGE Thermal mass that needs to come up to temp.

My shop has a rear wall that is almost 2 feet thick composed of stone and mortar. The other walls are only 1 foot thick consisting of stone and bricks with some old single pane glass windows here and there. Like Windy stated, when I had my LL Hyfire II in here, I tried to use the setback feature to "save" some money. And just like Windy, I would have my temp increase starting at 0400. My Hyfire would still be going full blast at 1100 trying to heat the walls back up again.

So I agree that once you finally get the temp up, it should be a lot easier (meaning using less coal) to maintain that temp.

Who knows, if I ever hit the lottery, I may just come and visit you and offer some assistance first hand.

Rick

 
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Post by CapeCoaler » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 11:03 am

Our electric has been at .22KWH for awhile now...
Usually in the national top 5 cost wise...
They do have the new energy efficient electric motors for the circulators...
I think the spec for a 007 was at 60 watts...
If you can fab up a quickie shelter that will help...
By buffering the -20* to even 25* you keep more heat in the water...
Just keeping the wind from scrubbing the heat away will help...


 
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Post by AlaskaCoal1 » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 1:39 pm

Ok the consensus is that I build thermal mass and then it will be super cheap to heat.... barely any coal... :D :D :D ... I am off to get some more burnable dirt today and then I am going to crank the beast... try to make use of the only day off ... working again this weekend... man work really gets in the way of what I want to do. When I crank it today I may turn the 200K bullet heat loose in there as well.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:00 pm

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:Ok the consensus is that I build thermal mass and then it will be super cheap to heat.... barely any coal... :D :D :D ... I am off to get some more burnable dirt today and then I am going to crank the beast... try to make use of the only day off ... working again this weekend... man work really gets in the way of what I want to do. When I crank it today I may turn the 200K bullet heat loose in there as well.
The use of firebrick is not for thermal mass, but to accomplish higher fire box temperature to help burn the smoke. You also need heated over fire air to do a good job. A look at modern wood burners with secondary air tubes will give an idea of what is needed. Some pics of the fire box would help.

 
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:27 pm

Thermal mass in this case is having everything inside the shop warmed up to desired temperature , then the heating system can just maintain that thermal mass.

I fail to see how it is anywhere near efficient to cover a "wet" wall in a boiler with brick.
If that section of "wet" wall was not needed to transfer heat from the fire to the water,it is probable that when the boiler was built that section would have had no provision for water .
A properly designed boiler needs a certain amount of heat transfer wall to get the heat into the water as quickly as possible.
Putting bricks in to cut the square footage of fire to water heat transfer will only be counter-productive. This is like downsizing the boilers capability for no gain.

I have been proven wrong b4 in my life,but so far I have never heard of a success story involving the downsizing of the heat transfer surface in a boiler.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 4:52 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:I have been proven wrong b4 in my life,but so far I have never heard of a success story involving the downsizing of the heat transfer surface in a boiler.
The gain is in the efficiency of the fire. Proper design starts with the fire and adequate heat exchange follows. Trying to do both with a fire pot is bad practise, which is why the top of the line Glenwoods are brick lined.

Your Crane and the Chubby both have a firepot spaced away from the stove sides to maintain higher temperatures in the firepot.

Bit coal is hard enough to burn clean without further handicapping the burn with a cool water backed fire pot.

 
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windyhill4.2
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Post by windyhill4.2 » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 5:11 pm

franco b wrote:
windyhill4.2 wrote:I have been proven wrong b4 in my life,but so far I have never heard of a success story involving the downsizing of the heat transfer surface in a boiler.
The gain is in the efficiency of the fire. Proper design starts with the fire and adequate heat exchange follows. Trying to do both with a fire pot is bad practise, which is why the top of the line Glenwoods are brick lined.

Your Crane and the Chubby both have a firepot spaced away from the stove sides to maintain higher temperatures in the firepot.

Bit coal is hard enough to burn clean without further handicapping the burn with a cool water backed fire pot.
I can't see the comparison of a stove vs a boiler.

 
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Post by lzaharis » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:02 pm

My Switzer CWW100,000 BTU hand fed was half filled with full standard firebrick by me
and I wish I had done it when I had the boiler installed.

All the standard firebrick that was piled in a boiler like mine was or any other one with coal grates covered with for half its fire box length with a piece of channel iron absorbs heat and keeps the firebox hot for longer burn times and hold the heat longer allowing it to shed into the water jacket.

Alaskacoals Evergreen Sequoyah model will benefit greatly from the thermal mass created by the fire brick if he fills the firebox half full of standard firebrick for the same reasons.

The firebox design on those units has a full length rocking coal grate with full firebrick laying on its side on both long sides of the boiler-I do not remember if the flue end of the firebox has firebrick there.
The evergreen firebox is an open rectangle with water in the rear wall portion and the two long side walls of the water stove.
The Big Boss Man and the Little Boss Man water stoves were lined with firebrick completely with water tanks in the roof and sides of the these boilers and Rick designed the Boss Man water stoves to let the homeowner change out broken or cracked firebrick easily as it was held in with strap iron and nuts and bolts.

From what I remember of the units I saw at an evergreen water stove dealer in Whitney Point and Ricks brochures 9 plus years ago the fire box is set up with a large squirrel cage combustion fan pushing the combustion air under the grates. The combustion fan was operated with a solenoid with simple door that shut the air flow off when the solenoid was unpowered and simply dropped on the air intake of the squirrel cage fan. Those boilers used digital aquastat controls, I do not remember the brand name of the boiler controls for his water stoves as they all used the same unit.

The Evergreen, Big Bossman and Little Boss Man water stoves were equipped with a smoke bypass tube in the roof of the boiler that was controlled with a rod connected to a solid plate gate that either sealed or left open the smoke tube and the rod that controlled the gate was right by the loading door to let the smoke go right out the stack to prevent the issue of the fire jumping out the loading door when the combustion fan was turned off the check the fire and add fuel.

The firebrick idea works and works well that Is why I mentioned it. They use a huge amount of firebrick in pulverized coal boilers for the same reason as the walls of those boilers are dry.

One pallet of standard fire brick will make a huge difference in his boiler but it is too late in his heating season now to risk having frozen and broken piping, of course if I get rich quick I fly up there with a pallet of standard firebrick and a length of 12 inch by 2 inch channel iron five foot long (if I remember right) and help him and bring a bunch of you along as a cheering section to pass me the firebrick as I sit in his boiler and lay the brick in place with no firebrick mortar.

:D
Last edited by lzaharis on Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

 
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Post by franco b » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:10 pm

windyhill4.2 wrote:I can't see the comparison of a stove vs a boiler.
The needs of the fire are the same.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Fri. Dec. 02, 2016 8:19 pm

Ideally you would be able to design the combustion portion of the boiler separately from the heat exchanger. Trying to burn coal efficiently with the fire right against a 180 degree piece of steel is a recipe for smoke and wasted fuel. The preheated air and bricks that Franco mentioned is probably the best compromise.


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