heating large shop in Alaska

heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:33 am

From the title you can see I will need heat in the shop ALL winter. Plans are to keep in running until spring (Mid May) then shut down for the summer.

Specs:
Interior Alaska ( can reach -30 to -40 but average is probably 0)
45 x 50 x 14 Shop
300K Sequoyah outdoor wood/coal boiler with 1 1/4 Thermopex for the supply
60-80K wood/coal stove ( only used when I am in the shop)
3x 70K hydronic heaters w/ fans -- two horizontal and one cabinet style
R 40 in walls
R 60 in ceilings
R20 in back wall (connects to unheated space in the barn... this is actually a 50x88)
Heat loss shows 120K -150K needed depending on which calculator
Very Remote so little to no help from plumber/HVAC without considerable expense

Plans are to

1)Heat the shop this year for a place to retreat during the winter and actually be able to do things outside.
2)Put a well in the shop for running water both hot and cold
3) Plumb shop on one zone so when calls for heat all heaters work
4) use 1 1/4 throughout the barn to keep the head down and the btu availability up
5) Minimize pipes as much as possible
6) Also heat hot water as a well is in the future
7) minimize the height of rise to 6 feet to keep the water from boiler one it reaches the negative pressure area. ( expect water line to be 4 feet so a 10 foot rise is a difference of 6 feet approx -2.6 this should give me fluff for a 190 degree water temp boiling based on psi.
8) mount the bottom of the heaters at about the 8 foot mark

Question:
1) Best way to plumb this-- zone valves through manifold or just push water through the heaters and thermostat the fans-- electricity is expensive here so want to balance initial cost with operating cost for a warm shop
2) are the placement of heaters correct

Just need some help on this one. I can do the work but design of plumbing not my strong suit

Thanks -- attached a diagram to help visualize
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AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Visit Leisure Line

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:15 am

Hello. That is a quite a shop!

Is the Sequoyah outdoor boiler an "open" system (non-pressurized)? Why is your manifold at the opposite end of the shop from the thermopex?

Do you have a water supply available to fill/maintain the system?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: hotblast1357 On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:29 am

Have you ever thought about moving the boiler into a corner in the shop? Idk if its possible or cost effective, but would make tending a lot warmer and piping heat for the garage a lot easier..
hotblast1357
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1984 Eshland S260
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: 1990 New Yorker WC 90
Coal Size/Type: anthracite pea
Other Heating: oil furnace

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:27 pm

I wouldn't have the piping/well next to the Low R value doors. That is asking for trouble. I would also set your heaters up so they circulate the air in a counter clockwise airflow pattern. Like they practice in green houses. We are also assuming you have a reliable electrical system. I would go with a larger size pex for your supply. It's always easier to get more BTU's thru larger pipe sizes then try to squeeze more thru a smaller pipe. You are borderline with 1 1/4". By the way,,,,,, SWEET garage!!!!!!!
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520, 700, Van Wert 800 GJ 61,53
Baseburners & Antiques: Magic Stewart 16, times 2!
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck
Other Heating: Slant Fin electric boiler backup

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:40 pm

Can we presume that (seeing as you are in Alsaka) your area is hit annually with about 12,000 to 13,000 HDD's (Heating Degree Days)? If so, then your heating demand will be roughly twice the demand of most of us here on this forum. Just tossing this out there so others who have solved similar heating matters know to roughly double everything.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:59 pm

Thanks for the replies... I really wanted to keep the well and manifold away from the far back corner. what it not pictured here is that the TV, indoor coal stove (antique Beckwith) BAR and other man cave stuff is/will be in that area. did not want the manifold right below the TV... HA. I will work around with it as adding pipe length cost money. As far as putting it in the barn that will be a no go since i just buried lots of dollars in pipe. We are in the 15K - 16K HDD.

I have done some calculation and it seems that from the manifold to the heaters piped with 1 1/4 pex and back with all fitting taken into account I am looking at approx 250 -300 feet of pipe .... with the calculations that is going to give pump head pressures that will require a Taco 010. I was wanting to stay in the 005 and 007 range due to cost and operating cost.

Any ideas -- I figured that the boiler at best will give me 150K but once I get the 150K in the barn can I do a different figure for the heaters... thus dropping pipe size and maybe flow rate. These are the things I am struggling with.
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:01 pm

15-16K HDD's would mean multiplying similar local forum members solutions by a factor of roughly 2.5.
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: lsayre On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:02 pm

Will each heater unit be on its own zone loop, or a single loop?
lsayre
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AHS S130 Coal Gun
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Pea
Other Heating: Resistance Boiler (13.5 KW)

Visit Leisure Line

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: lzaharis On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:03 pm

AlaskaCoal1 wrote:From the title you can see I will need heat in the shop ALL winter. Plans are to keep in running until spring (Mid May) then shut down for the summer.

Specs:
Interior Alaska ( can reach -30 to -40 but average is probably 0)
45 x 50 x 14 Shop
300K Sequoyah outdoor wood/coal boiler with 1 1/4 Thermopex for the supply
60-80K wood/coal stove ( only used when I am in the shop)
3x 70K hydronic heaters w/ fans -- two horizontal and one cabinet style
R 40 in walls
R 60 in ceilings
R20 in back wall (connects to unheated space in the barn... this is actually a 50x88)
Heat loss shows 120K -150K needed depending on which calculator
Very Remote so little to no help from plumber/HVAC without considerable expense

Plans are to

1)Heat the shop this year for a place to retreat during the winter and actually be able to do things outside.
2)Put a well in the shop for running water both hot and cold
3) Plumb shop on one zone so when calls for heat all heaters work
4) use 1 1/4 throughout the barn to keep the head down and the btu availability up
5) Minimize pipes as much as possible
6) Also heat hot water as a well is in the future
7) minimize the height of rise to 6 feet to keep the water from boiler one it reaches the negative pressure area. ( expect water line to be 4 feet so a 10 foot rise is a difference of 6 feet approx -2.6 this should give me fluff for a 190 degree water temp boiling based on psi.
8) mount the bottom of the heaters at about the 8 foot mark

Question:
1) Best way to plumb this-- zone valves through manifold or just push water through the heaters and thermostat the fans-- electricity is expensive here so want to balance initial cost with operating cost for a warm shop
2) are the placement of heaters correct

Just need some help on this one. I can do the work but design of plumbing not my strong suit

Thanks -- attached a diagram to help visualize




========================================================================================


The Evergreen models are open systems.


I was going to buy the Whispering Pines model but Rick stopped selling and building them before I could buy one.


The National Plumbing Code does not allow drilled wells in buildings. You could drill the well next to the building and have it in a well pit below grade to keep it within standards.

Please buy the paper back books "Classic Hydronics" and "Pumping Away" written by Dan Holohan from either Amazon or Dan's Books.

Dan writes his plumbing books so "everyone" whether your a plumber or a home owner can understand how a heating system of any type works. He also talks about the history of heating with forced air, circulated hot water, gravity hot water heating and steam for the layman and plumbers.

His web page http://www.heatinghelp.com is also a fountain of information for the layman and the professional that does not require a paid membership to use and learn about plumbing for heating and cooling of all kinds for homeowners and building owners.

These paper backs will help you with your heating system and design it the best way possible.
Last edited by lzaharis on Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
lzaharis
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: Scottscoaled On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:05 pm

A pump you might want to check out would be a B & G NRF 25. Great pump curves, and price that puts the Taco-10 to shame. Supplyhouse.com for $83 plus shipping
Last edited by Scottscoaled on Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Scottscoaled
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520, 700, Van Wert 800 GJ 61,53
Baseburners & Antiques: Magic Stewart 16, times 2!
Coal Size/Type: Lots of buck
Other Heating: Slant Fin electric boiler backup

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:07 pm

Taco 010 is the wrong pump. It is made for high flow rates with minimal reistance, a flat pump curve.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:08 pm

Rob R. wrote:Hello.

Is the Sequoyah outdoor boiler an "open" system (non-pressurized)?

Do you have a water supply available to fill/maintain the system?


?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: lzaharis On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 1:46 pm

Adding to what I mentioned earlier; you have to factor in the fact that you want to heat almost 32,000 cubic feet of air space with the outdoor boiler.


I take it you are going to burn the "low volatile" Usibeli Coal?

As Scott said the B+G NRF 25 is a great circulator, Quiet running and it has three speeds to
circulate hot water. I have two of them, one is mounted in isolation flanges and the second is now a spare for my closed system.

There is a gentleman on the Hearth forum that is selling 4 Amtrol pressurized bladder tanks
that were removed from a Hospital dismantling job. I believe that they have a 425 gallon capacity
and would be great for storage of hot water if you take out the rubber bladders.

An open system for heating would benefit from more storage like this as your Sequioya is going
to run flat out with the combustion fan under the coal grates. The hotter you keep the water
the shorter the burn time as you have a huge square area of coal grates to burn fuel.

I will tell you the same thing I tell anyone else with a hand fed wood and coal boiler strictly based
on my experience with the Switzer hand wood and coal boiler fed I owned.

I filled the fire box with standard fire brick equal to half the volume of the firebox from the grates to the flue pipe breech.

Now as your Sequoyah has the flue through the roof you can still fill it with firebrick for half its volume by doing it in this way:

First purchase a piece of 2 inch Channel Iron equivalent that is wide enough to lay on the shaker grate mounting frame without interfering with the outside shaker arms stroke.

Second, you can leave the single rows of standard firebrick where they are on both sides of the shaker grates and just lay the 2 inch channel iron on the grate mounting frame.

Then you can start stacking the standard firebrick on the channel iron and continue laying it down on the channel iron and build it up to about 12 inches below the flue pipe. It will not interfere with the sliding gate that you use for diverting the flue gasses before you open the loading door.

The stacked fire brick acts as a huge thermal mass and it stores heat and releases heat back in to the fire box for you. The coal and wood burns hotter and keeps the fire hotter all the time when the mass of firebrick is heated.

In this way you can burn less wood and coal and the burn times will be longer as the firebrick is radiating heat back into the firebox and the same heat is making almost all the smoke burn and you lose very little smoke as its burned in the firebox when the combustion fan in the back of the boiler is running as the combustion temperature is much hotter due to the thermal mass of fire brick that is storing heat and shedding heat back into the firebox.

The only time you will see any smoke is when the combustion fan is shut down when the water temperature in the boilers digital triple aquastat is satisfied.

If you use the firebrick as I described your fuel use will become very small and you will save money on coal too and the Usibeli Coal will burn hotter and longer with less smoke.

In the off season all you will need to do is vacuum out the loose ash that is in the boiler or use a leaf blower to push it all out the stack and have a vacuum running to suck up the fly ash as it is blown out the stack.

Adding a short flue pipe with a rain cap will help a lot and for that matter you could install a tee to attach the vacuum hose to when cleaning it in the off season with a leaf blower.
Last edited by lzaharis on Mon Oct 03, 2016 12:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
lzaharis
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: AlaskaCoal1 On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:07 pm

Want to answer a few question first.

Rob-- the boiler is an open system boiler
Isayre-- I was going to run 1x zone for all three heaters since the space is fairly open and one floor plan.

I have run a few calculations and putting the heaters in the similar formations as the attached diagram and moving the manifold near to boiler pipe entry yields.

10' up wall
10' to the corner
40' to the heater near the man door for a total of 60' x2 =120 ft
add say 10' total for supply and return for each heater that adds another 30' = 150 ft

I also did the calculation for GPM and that came out to 10 gpm with 150K BTU vs a 20 degree delta T
yeilding 1 1/4 inch pipe

So the head of the system looks to be the following calculation
.000794 x 1 x 150 x 56.234 = 6.67

This is very basic as the total length of pipe indicated is just straight run pipe with NO fittings... what is a good multiplier to add that is not to liberal but not to conservative for fittings considering PEX pipe and the ability to sweep and not 90 degree pipe. I would like to keep the head down but it seems to always rise to the level of a Taco 010.

It is my understanding that these pumps are hungry for electricity... any experience with this.

Also any ideas on how to design this system. Stick with 1 1/4 up to the heater or downsize to one inch out of the manifold.
AlaskaCoal1
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Sequoya Outdoor boiler
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman TLC, Warm Morning 500
Baseburners & Antiques: Beckwith Round Oak
Coal Size/Type: Alaska Sub Bit Lump

Re: heating large shop in Alaska

PostBy: lzaharis On: Sun Oct 02, 2016 11:56 pm

You can find pipe flow calculators on the internet as well as the resistance values for the surface area I.D. of Pex, copper and steel pipe as well as fittings of all types on the B+G home page as well as Taco and others that can help you find the right circulator and piping for your needs.

These things as well as a very broad discussion about circulators can also be found in the two paper back books written by Dan Holohan that I suggested that you purchase to help you with this as you need to know more about HVAC and hydronic heating.

Have you insulated your garage doors? My other question is have you hung these air handlers already or is this a planned purchase?

I see that you also posted your inquiry on the hearth forum as well.
lzaharis
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker

Visit Leisure Line