My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Nov 12, 2016 11:31 am

It's not a spring. It's a bi-metal coil that senses the heat of the stove and by opening and closing the air inlet regulates the temperature of the stove. It is not a draft control. It is a thermostat.

When working properly and if the stove is tight, no other draft control is necessary because it will open and shut to maintain temperature by itself. An exception would be if your chimney draft is very high.

A major advantage of such a thermostat is that at the end of a burn with a lot of ash blocking the grate it will have opened the air flap wide to maintain temperature. When ash is cleared and new coal added it gets that extra air to burn gasses and get back up to temperature and then when temperature is back up it closes down to maintain a steady temperature. You should be able to leave it at one setting and never change it except if you want more or less heat.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea


Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: corey On: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:34 pm

corey wrote:Good work those bi metal tstats are great.
corey
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: USS Ashley coal stove
Coal Size/Type: Eastern KY bituminous

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: warminmn On: Sat Nov 12, 2016 12:40 pm

franco b wrote:It's not a spring. It's a bi-metal coil that senses the heat of the stove and by opening and closing the air inlet regulates the temperature of the stove. It is not a draft control. It is a thermostat.

When working properly and if the stove is tight, no other draft control is necessary because it will open and shut to maintain temperature by itself. An exception would be if your chimney draft is very high.

A major advantage of such a thermostat is that at the end of a burn with a lot of ash blocking the grate it will have opened the air flap wide to maintain temperature. When ash is cleared and new coal added it gets that extra air to burn gasses and get back up to temperature and then when temperature is back up it closes down to maintain a steady temperature. You should be able to leave it at one setting and never change it except if you want more or less heat.


As always franco, a very nice explanation of its function.
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: cntbill On: Sat Nov 12, 2016 1:13 pm

franco b wrote:It's not a spring. It's a bi-metal coil that senses the heat of the stove and by opening and closing the air inlet regulates the temperature of the stove. It is not a draft control. It is a thermostat.


Yes I guess I should call it by its correct name and thanks for your explanation that helped me remember better ;)
When I had the Vigilant and Hitizer stoves as they had the same setup which worked well and one of the reasons why I went to the 400 model.

Well my adjustment worked ! However it needs some fine tuning which I am going to wait to do when I change the grate so the stove will be cool... :roll: But one thing I will change is that I will change the square nut to a regular hex nut on the regulator control rod which will make easier to make slight adjustments down the road.

I'm just wondering if there is a procedure written down somewhere that the manufacture used for the initial setup of the stoves. As to what position of the flap and the bi-metal coil along with to the relation of the regulator knob. ?
cntbill
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130 Rebuild Project
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A70/A90
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Gem 22 by Floyd, Wells Co.
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Buck - Nut and Stove
Other Heating: Fireplace

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: franco b On: Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:10 pm

cntbill wrote:I'm just wondering if there is a procedure written down somewhere that the manufacture used for the initial setup of the stoves. As to what position of the flap and the bi-metal coil along with to the relation of the regulator knob. ?


What i have done is with a cold stove and the regulator set at the lowest position, the air flap should be just closed.
franco b
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
Coal Size/Type: nut and pea

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: cntbill On: Sat Nov 12, 2016 6:39 pm

franco b wrote:
cntbill wrote:I'm just wondering if there is a procedure written down somewhere that the manufacture used for the initial setup of the stoves. As to what position of the flap and the bi-metal coil along with to the relation of the regulator knob. ?


What i have done is with a cold stove and the regulator set at the lowest position, the air flap should be just closed.


Yes COLD stove, "cold" is the key word, that's what I'm going to try that when I change the grate. The manual I have is just the "Installation and Operation Instructions" doesn't give any specifics on service or repair. Thanks!
cntbill
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130 Rebuild Project
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A70/A90
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Gem 22 by Floyd, Wells Co.
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Buck - Nut and Stove
Other Heating: Fireplace

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: cntbill On: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:16 pm

Received and installed grate and shaker handle and they work great :D

franco b wrote:What i have done is with a cold stove and the regulator set at the lowest position, the air flap should be just closed.


Adjusted as suggested and didn't burn my hands this time, however once I re-lit the stove and had it going for a bit had to re-adjust because at the medium setting the flap didn't open like it did when when I adjusted it cold. But the readjustment seems to be working ok.. The only thing I'm thinking that may be throwing me off is that I don't have a baro installed and I believe the draft is a bit too much as at a low setting the draft is pulling .05-.07 and at the moment with this wind I've seen readings as high as .15 and maybe a bit more. So I'm thinking of letting it die out and install the bar.
cntbill
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130 Rebuild Project
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A70/A90
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Gem 22 by Floyd, Wells Co.
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Buck - Nut and Stove
Other Heating: Fireplace

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: KingCoal On: Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:26 pm

with each of my auto therm. regulated stoves i've had to make the final adjustment when the house was at desired heat and the stove at cruise for the setting to work properly.

sounds like you're well on your way :D
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1- Warm Morning # 617A, 3-Locke Warm Morning #120, 1-Locke Warm Morning #524B
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none


Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: cntbill On: Mon Nov 21, 2016 10:01 pm

KingCoal wrote:with each of my auto therm. regulated stoves i've had to make the final adjustment when the house was at desired heat and the stove at cruise for the setting to work properly.

sounds like you're well on your way :D


yes so far so good :) But do you use a baro with your Warm Mornings?
cntbill
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130 Rebuild Project
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A70/A90
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Gem 22 by Floyd, Wells Co.
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Buck - Nut and Stove
Other Heating: Fireplace

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: KingCoal On: Tue Nov 22, 2016 10:11 pm

cntbill wrote:
KingCoal wrote:with each of my auto therm. regulated stoves i've had to make the final adjustment when the house was at desired heat and the stove at cruise for the setting to work properly.

sounds like you're well on your way :D


yes so far so good :) But do you use a baro with your Warm Mornings?


all of the sales and operation stuff i've seen for the Locke warm mornings and the later warm morning stove company units shows and mentions a Baro. being included with the stoves at purchase. i'm pretty sure there is a copy around the forum recommending -.04 as the max. setting.

i've tried Baro's on several stoves in 5 diff. houses. they didn't work out in a single case. the chimneys were so strong that the Baro. pulled more heat out and outside air in than the stoves could keep heated.

i use multiple MPD's to manage the draft condition the stove experiences in a closed system.

if you have time and are so inclined you should install a "T" in your black pipe and install a Baro. for a while and see how it goes, then cap the "T" shut and try that a while and report back. many people will be interested in your experiences.

steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1- Warm Morning # 617A, 3-Locke Warm Morning #120, 1-Locke Warm Morning #524B
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: cntbill On: Wed Nov 23, 2016 1:27 am

KingCoal wrote:all of the sales and operation stuff i've seen for the Locke warm mornings and the later warm morning stove company units shows and mentions a Baro. being included with the stoves at purchase. i'm pretty sure there is a copy around the forum recommending -.04 as the max. setting.


Well in the past I have used both a Vermont Vigilant and a Hitzer 50-93 both very nice stoves and worked well for me, but with neither did I use a MPD or a Baro as they were not recommended for use with those stoves because of the automatic thermostat system, and being similar to the Warm Morning. Also back then I didn't have a manometer so I never knew what the draft was that they were pulling.

So I was curious on your experience, as I have read pretty much the same info. And not wanting to get into the MPD/Baro Debate, but from one Warm Morning Manual which lists the 400:
"A barometric draft control should be installed in the second section of straight flue pipe above the heater (unless the natural draft of the chimney is barely adequate). See back page." and from the back page, "A barometric draft control is recommended for nearly all installations to maintain a steady chimney draft, to prevent overheating and to save fuel. It is not necessary if the flue draft is barely adequate. Your Warm Morning dealer can supply a Barometric Draft Control for a small additional cost. The control should be installed as the second joint of pipe and above the hand turn damper. If it is more convenient to install it in the horizontal section of flue pipe, then follow instructions included with control."

So from what I gather from the instructions is to us a MPD regardless and that a baro should be used unless you have a poor draft. But here is one thing that I am thinking is that the Warm Morning was designed to burn Bit well and that being said, that the instructions were written around using Bituminous coal, and not so much for Anthracite

KingCoal wrote:if you have time and are so inclined you should install a "T" in your black pipe and install a Baro. for a while and see how it goes, then cap the "T" shut and try that a while and report back. many people will be interested in your experiences.


Well being that my draft is higher than the .04, averaging around .05-.08 with the MPD set at about a 45-60 degrees I'm thinking of adding the baro this weekend. just need to figure the best location for my setup and I guess I'll find out from there.
cntbill
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130 Rebuild Project
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A70/A90
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Gem 22 by Floyd, Wells Co.
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Buck - Nut and Stove
Other Heating: Fireplace

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: KingCoal On: Wed Nov 23, 2016 10:11 pm

before i did the Baro. i would follow your tending practice as usual for 24 hrs. with the exception of closing the MPD all the way and see what draft reading you get and if it stays constant. if you can get a steady -.04 to -.02 i'd say you're good.

on my stove i can get it to stay at -.02 and control the heat out put with the primary. it will hold the -.02 no matter how far i open the primary but the heat goes up or down according to the last setting.

there's a saying among old bikers that are still riding haven beaten the odds that took out most of our friends, " take your own ride " you're pretty much at that point now. :D
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1- Warm Morning # 617A, 3-Locke Warm Morning #120, 1-Locke Warm Morning #524B
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: cntbill On: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:13 am

KingCoal wrote:if you have time and are so inclined you should install a "T" in your black pipe and install a Baro. for a while and see how it goes, then cap the "T" shut and try that a while and report back. many people will be interested in your experiences.


Well Steve, I got brave and set the MPD to 90 degrees, Regulator Knob on low setting and the draft never went below .05. So went ahead and added a "T" and Baro but closer to the chimney than the stove, set Baro to .05 with a good fire going. But the weather's been mild since and I don't believe I have any good data to rely on yet, but a couple observations since adding the Baro, with the MPD at about 90 the draft went down to .02 on the low setting, also regardless what angle, open or closed I set the MPD the pipe temp near the MPD stays the same. Cooler night temps are coming this week and I'm going to relocate the pipe thermometers to get a better handle on using the MPD and see how it goes, and yep seems I am at that point of "take your own ride" 8-)
cntbill
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA130 Rebuild Project
Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker A70/A90
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Warm Morning 400
Baseburners & Antiques: Radiant Gem 22 by Floyd, Wells Co.
Coal Size/Type: Rice / Buck - Nut and Stove
Other Heating: Fireplace

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:34 pm

here's a thought, with the fire at about 1/2 way thru your tending window ( say 6 hrs. since last tending ) open the MPD fully. set the Baro. to open at -.04, then close the MPD what ever it takes to hold -.02 / -.03 and see how you heat output and fuel use goes.

my custom stove loves -.02 / -.03 and whatever primary opening it takes to hold the house at target temp. lots of out put, low fuel use. :D

steve
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1- Warm Morning # 617A, 3-Locke Warm Morning #120, 1-Locke Warm Morning #524B
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none

Re: My Warm Morning Project - Thoughts?

PostBy: KingCoal On: Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:48 pm

here's link to a WM manual i had been looking for. it has a comment about setting baro. for -.02
Attachments
WM PDF B%26W (2).pdf
(248.4 KiB) Downloaded 6 times
Select:BBcode: [nepafile=76897]WM PDF B%26W (2).pdf[/nepafile]
KingCoal
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 1- Warm Morning # 617A, 3-Locke Warm Morning #120, 1-Locke Warm Morning #524B
Baseburners & Antiques: 2014 DTS C17 Base Burner
Coal Size/Type: Nut Anth.
Other Heating: none