Flame Sensor?

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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
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Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 1:01 pm

I'm looking for a flame sensor for my Keystoker KA-6 boiler. It needs to survive the interior environment, or have a method to sense (through a hole in the door?)

Ideally, one that is proportional to detect small glowing coals vs medium flame vs high flame, and survive full flame, from the door or nearby area. Obviously, it will not be directly "in" the flame :shock: ;)

I've seen the Arduino flame detectors, but unsure if they are proportional, and not sure how to rig through the door?

I thought of a glass well (think sightglass), but not sure if the IR of anthracite coal fire will be restricted by the glass?

Maybe someone has something in mind, or a (cheap) part from an existing boiler that I can order?

I think I'm looking at IR-S technology, which is more towards the IR end, rather than the UV of the oil boilers.

A ready-made probe would be nice ;)

 
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Pauliewog
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Post by Pauliewog » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 2:00 pm

I'm curious about your flame detection project, and the reasons for choosing IR over UV .

Curious minds need to know. :D

Paulie

 
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carlherrnstein
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Post by carlherrnstein » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 7:52 pm

That is a tall order.... could you use a gas thermocouple. Its voltage output will increase as it gets hotter. There built to stand heat, are cheap and most importantly of all can be found in many stores.


 
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
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Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 7:54 pm

Pauliewog wrote:I'm curious about your flame detection project, and the reasons for choosing IR over UV .

Curious minds need to know. :D

Paulie
I want to detect my coal fire ;)

Here's a graphic for the UV vs IR
IRvUVvIR-S.PNG
.PNG | 16.2KB | IRvUVvIR-S.PNG

 
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Posts: 2323
Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Western PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 8:05 pm

carlherrnstein wrote:That is a tall order.... could you use a gas thermocouple. Its voltage output will increase as it gets hotter. There built to stand heat, are cheap and most importantly of all can be found in many stores.
I was trying to go visual, not thermocouple. I can grab those all over.

The problem with IR is the "normal" way to protect a sensor is through a glass window. But not with IR ;)

Maybe there is a type of glass or a plastic that will withstand the heat? The flame sensors I have found are mostly enclosed in plastic "lenses" Might not do well with the heat of the fire.

I can do temperature based measurements, but I'd rather be visual.

I might be able to do a fiber optic routing, but then the detection will be farther away, as the fiber optic will have to be away and protected- yet disposable if it melts ;)

 
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Posts: 2323
Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Western PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 8:10 pm

Pauliewog wrote:I'm curious about your flame detection project, and the reasons for choosing IR over UV .

Curious minds need to know. :D

Paulie
Sorry, I think my previous reply was a bit short. You asked about the project? I'm looking to keep an eye on the size of the idle flame and maybe run a dynamic timer to cycle the stoker when not calling for heat.

Not very ambitious, but I have other plans, too ;)


 
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Pauliewog
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Baseburners & Antiques: Fame Rosemont #20, Home Stove Works #25, Glenwood #6, Happy Thought Oak, Merry Bride #214, Sunnyside, Worlds Argand #114, New Golden Sun , & About 30 others.
Coal Size/Type: Stove, Chesnut, Pea, Rice / Anthracite

Post by Pauliewog » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 10:34 pm

I would think the greatest obstacle you would encounter using IR detection would be keeping the sight glass free of fly ash.

I'm familiar with using flame rods, UV flame detectors, and thermocouples for flame detection and temperature control, but when it comes to IR, my knowledge is limited other than using a portable IR temperature gun,

The thermocouple in our burn off oven gives a visual digital display on a Honeywell temperature controller and throttles the gas valve according to our predetermined set points.

Is there an advantage of using IR? I know that little temperature controller has quite a number of options built in that I never had occasion to use.

Paulie

 
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CoalisCoolxWarm
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Posts: 2323
Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
Location: Western PA
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Sun. Nov. 06, 2016 11:27 pm

Pauliewog wrote:I would think the greatest obstacle you would encounter using IR detection would be keeping the sight glass free of fly ash.

I'm familiar with using flame rods, UV flame detectors, and thermocouples for flame detection and temperature control, but when it comes to IR, my knowledge is limited other than using a portable IR temperature gun,

The thermocouple in our burn off oven gives a visual digital display on a Honeywell temperature controller and throttles the gas valve according to our predetermined set points.

Is there an advantage of using IR? I know that little temperature controller has quite a number of options built in that I never had occasion to use.

Paulie
IR doesn't go through glass, but near IR (visible) does better than IR. I worked with it a lot in a previous life ;)

If I use visible light, it is subject to light pollution from opening doors, gasket gaps, etc. Might not have a choice.

Coal does UV, which might be less light pollution in an indoor environment, except for things like cheap fluorescent tubes.

Try for the "best case" then work with the best you can get for the effort/$

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