Any Reason NOT to Install Boiler on Blocks?

 
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Vampiro
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Post by Vampiro » Wed. Nov. 09, 2016 9:07 pm

blrman07 wrote:Boilers expand and contract. It's better it do it on a solid foundation. Plus, many codes require a concrete base, and prohibit the use of blocks.

Vampiro

Uhhh which codes are you referencing that prohibit the use of concrete blocks to make a base for a boiler?
Uhhh, Denver. Also Cali requires them to be either bolted to a concrete floor, or be on top of and bolted to a concrete pad. Ny requires blocks that must be filled with concrete, brick base (using mortar) or solid pad. Plus, Weil-McClain boiler manual says to install their boilers on level concrete pads (aka housekeeping pads) along with other manufacturers.

Hollow blocks should never be used. Personally I believe such an install shows poor workmanship, and on top of that a risk of the block failing. If someone needs to use concrete blocks, make sure they are upright, filled with concrete and level. Never lay them on their side and leave them hollow.

 
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Post by blrman07 » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 5:40 am

Vampiro wrote:
blrman07 wrote:Boilers expand and contract. It's better it do it on a solid foundation. Plus, many codes require a concrete base, and prohibit the use of blocks.

Vampiro

Uhhh which codes are you referencing that prohibit the use of concrete blocks to make a base for a boiler?
Uhhh, Denver. Also Cali requires them to be either bolted to a concrete floor, or be on top of and bolted to a concrete pad. Ny requires blocks that must be filled with concrete, brick base (using mortar) or solid pad. Plus, Weil-McClain boiler manual says to install their boilers on level concrete pads (aka housekeeping pads) along with other manufacturers.

Hollow blocks should never be used. Personally I believe such an install shows poor workmanship, and on top of that a risk of the block failing. If someone needs to use concrete blocks, make sure they are upright, filled with concrete and level. Never lay them on their side and leave them hollow.
Thanks for the reply Vamp. The OP is not in Denver and not in Cali. and not in NY. I have a severe pet peeve with people who try and apply code from a different state, borough, township, city etc to everything and everybody and quote it like it is law for everybody everywhere. Also your reference to WMCL boilers is nice but irrelevant as the boiler in question is not a Weil Mclain boiler. Does the Original Posters manufacturer require it be installed on a level concrete pad? No. it doesn't.

You said it properly when you stated "Personally...." It's bad form to try and pass off personal opinion as law, code, requirement, etc.

 
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Post by waldo lemieux » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 7:35 am

blrman07 wrote:You said it properly when you stated "Personally...." It's bad form to try and pass off personal opinion as law, code, requirement, etc.
x2

 
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Vampiro
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Post by Vampiro » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 9:48 am

Boilers expand and contract. It's better it do it on a solid foundation. Plus, many codes require a concrete base, and prohibit the use of blocks.

Vampiro

Uhhh which codes are you referencing that prohibit the use of concrete blocks to make a base for a boiler?

Uhhh, Denver. Also Cali requires them to be either bolted to a concrete floor, or be on top of and bolted to a concrete pad. Ny requires blocks that must be filled with concrete, brick base (using mortar) or solid pad. Plus, Weil-McClain boiler manual says to install their boilers on level concrete pads (aka housekeeping pads) along with other manufacturers.

Hollow blocks should never be used. Personally I believe such an install shows poor workmanship, and on top of that a risk of the block failing. If someone needs to use concrete blocks, make sure they are upright, filled with concrete and level. Never lay them on their side and leave them hollow.

Thanks for the reply Vamp. The OP is not in Denver and not in Cali. and not in NY. I have a severe pet peeve with people who try and apply code from a different state, borough, township, city etc to everything and everybody and quote it like it is law for everybody everywhere. Also your reference to WMCL boilers is nice but irrelevant as the boiler in question is not a Weil Mclain boiler. Does the Original Posters manufacturer require it be installed on a level concrete pad? No. it doesn't.

You said it properly when you stated "Personally...." It's bad form to try and pass off personal opinion as law, code, requirement, etc.
So where did I start off my reply to "try and apply code from a different state, borough, township, city etc to everything and everybody and quote it like it is law for everybody everywhere.", or pass off my opinion strictly based off of code? If you read my post, it started off saying "A boiler setting is important. You should make a solid concrete pad for your boiler to do it once and do it right." It is good practice to install a boiler on a concrete pad regardless. The case I made for installing a boiler on a concrete pad is logical.

Then you even went as far to bring up the installation manual stating that it doesn't say anything about requiring a concrete pad. So tell me where the installation manual makes a case to install the LL 220 on concrete blocks? What the manual does mention is to make sure it is level. Which has more of a propensity to move or shift? A concrete pad, or blocks? The latter holds true. The PA boiler code might not even require housekeeping pads (for single family up to four and without a store) So because it doesn't say you must install it on a pad, throw good practice out the window, throw some blocks under there and we're good? Sorry, I don't build that way. Because a boiler manual doesn't say to put a drop header on a steam system, should we ignore a practice that makes for better efficiency and steam that is more dry? Nope, I use a drop header, As do others I've either helped, or worked with. Or, if a boiler manual doesn't stress the importance of venting the mains on a steam system, should we just forget about those Gorton #2's (or vent tree when there isn't enough room for the #2) and install one vent somewhere along the main? Going that extra inch or mile leads to a better, more professional install. So why not pass it off to the next person?

Both of your replies were nasty, while I was responding to the OP with good installation practices in mind that should be used.


 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 9:54 am

Personally, I like to get some air under the boilers, to prevent the condensation and conductive heat loss through concrete.

Pretty sure I used the solid blocks on their sides, then shimmed with a bit of metal.

Here's an excerpt from Keystoker's crappy printing of their installation manual ;)
Keystoker_blocks.png
.PNG | 20.3KB | Keystoker_blocks.png
Without commenting on codes I don't know, I think it's likely many get their installation opinions from these kinds of installation manuals. It works quite well for us :cheers:

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 10:13 am

Vampiro wrote:Plus, many codes require a concrete base, and prohibit the use of blocks.
This statement is one of authority, with the implication that using blocks is *prohibited* and a concrete base is *required* by "many codes," instructing the OP that this is the rule he should follow to be safe.

It's overreach under color of law at worst, an unintended exaggeration at best.

Now, had you said something like, "Some other states have codes that require xyz because of earthquakes, water in basements, etc..."

IIRC, the raised concrete base is something Pennsylvania wants, too, in garages to keep water, fluids, vapors, and stuff away from solid fuel heat. I don't think they like solid fuel in garages at all...There was a discussion on this a while back, so don't trust my memory- the post is here somewhere for the searching ;)

If your floor isn't sufficient for the weight of a coal boiler and all the water weight, a raised pad will help spread the weight, similar to installing a pillar on a basement floor.

IMHO, Kalifornia isn't a place worth living, so concrete anchors don't concern me. Haha! :cheers:

 
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Post by Vampiro » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 10:52 am

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
Vampiro wrote:Plus, many codes require a concrete base, and prohibit the use of blocks.
This statement is one of authority, with the implication that using blocks is *prohibited* and a concrete base is *required* by "many codes," instructing the OP that this is the rule he should follow to be safe.

It's overreach under color of law at worst, an unintended exaggeration at best.

Now, had you said something like, "Some other states have codes that require xyz because of earthquakes, water in basements, etc..."

IIRC, the raised concrete base is something Pennsylvania wants, too, in garages to keep water, fluids, vapors, and stuff away from solid fuel heat. I don't think they like solid fuel in garages at all...There was a discussion on this a while back, so don't trust my memory- the post is here somewhere for the searching ;)

If your floor isn't sufficient for the weight of a coal boiler and all the water weight, a raised pad will help spread the weight, similar to installing a pillar on a basement floor.

IMHO, Kalifornia isn't a place worth living, so concrete anchors don't concern me. Haha! :cheers:
Overreach please. I never started the post stating that the OP should do it strictly based off of code. You never even knew there was a requirement anywhere for that matter and keep using a strawman argument, and are deflecting from the original advice given, shown by your reference to the manual "because it doesn't say means we can ignore it argument". Many = more than a couple. That would lead one to do research on their local codes / insurance requirements if they wished. It takes nothing away from the main point of using a concrete base instead of blocks for a far better install.

One thing I do agree with you on is California. :funny:

 
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Post by CoalisCoolxWarm » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 11:11 am

Vampiro wrote:Overreach please. I never started the post stating that the OP should do it strictly based off of code. You never even knew there was a requirement anywhere for that matter and keep using a strawman argument, and are deflecting from the original advice given, shown by your reference to the manual "because it doesn't say means we can ignore it argument". Many = more than a couple. That would lead one to do research on their local codes / insurance requirements if they wished. It takes nothing away from the main point of using a concrete base instead of blocks for a far better install.

One thing I do agree with you on is California. :funny:
You seemed bewildered as to why you got the tone of replies you got. While the initial advice is, indeed, good, the part about codes was a point of contention for the reasons already discussed by all.

But I think you've clarified your points quite well, which is constructive to all, so let's just agree that we ain't movin' to no Kalifornia! :cheers:


 
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Post by swyman » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 11:34 pm

FINALLY......I'm not the one getting yelled at! It's all good information that I will take into consideration but in reading these replies I will now use solid blocks to set my boiler on. Thank you!

 
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Post by SWPaDon » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 11:47 pm

swyman wrote:FINALLY......I'm not the one getting yelled at!
Thank goodness I didn't have a mouthfull of coffee when I read that. :rofl: :rofl: toothy toothy

 
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Post by swyman » Thu. Nov. 10, 2016 11:55 pm

SWPaDon wrote:
swyman wrote:FINALLY......I'm not the one getting yelled at!
Thank goodness I didn't have a mouthfull of coffee when I read that. :rofl: :rofl: toothy toothy
I will be very open BEFORE I make any decisions with this install. I would like it be as good as it can and I have really learned a lot from this group! There were some very stressful, frustrating times last season and I have a chance to do it right from the beginning!

 
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Post by davidmcbeth3 » Fri. Nov. 11, 2016 12:35 am

I put my oil burner boiler that I installed on blocks ... just for corrosion control. No issues.

 
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Post by Vampiro » Fri. Nov. 11, 2016 12:20 pm

swyman wrote:FINALLY......I'm not the one getting yelled at! It's all good information that I will take into consideration but in reading these replies I will now use solid blocks to set my boiler on. Thank you!
Good luck with your install. Very happy you are not using hollow blocks. If you are going the solid block route (though my recommendation would be a pad), make sure the blocks are level and secured. You can use mortar to set them and a level longer than the actual setting.

Best of luck with your install. Here's to warm heating seasons from now to the future. :cheers:

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