In Search of...the PERFECT Flame...Pics?
- CoalisCoolxWarm
- Member
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Western PA
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
- Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
- Other Heating: Oil Boiler
What does the "perfect flame" look like in a stoker? Pics?
How much orange, how much blue? Maybe viewed through a filter of some sort?
Just what does it take to get the most heat out of anthracite? Air to coal mixture?
If you weren't limited by "won't push off the end of the stoker bed" and "no flame-outs" what would it be?
How much orange, how much blue? Maybe viewed through a filter of some sort?
Just what does it take to get the most heat out of anthracite? Air to coal mixture?
If you weren't limited by "won't push off the end of the stoker bed" and "no flame-outs" what would it be?
- Rob R.
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 17980
- Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
- Location: Chazy, NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
Color has nothing to do with it. Ideally you want the coal to be done burning at the exact moment it clears the air holes in the grate. To put it another way, you want the coal burned, but do not want to blow air through ash. This applies once the fire has reached a steady state.
Some of the old stoker companies recommended the use of a flue gas anslyzer to optimize combustion.
Some of the old stoker companies recommended the use of a flue gas anslyzer to optimize combustion.
- freetown fred
- Member
- Posts: 30293
- Joined: Thu. Dec. 31, 2009 12:33 pm
- Location: Freetown,NY 13803
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
- Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut
C, just for the record, there's no such thing as PERFECT--there IS damn functional!!
- CoalisCoolxWarm
- Member
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Western PA
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
- Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
- Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Well, I'd say yes and no to that.Rob R. wrote:Color has nothing to do with it. Ideally you want the coal to be done burning at the exact moment it clears the air holes in the grate. To put it another way, you want the coal burned, but do not want to blow air through ash. This applies once the fire has reached a steady state.
Some of the old stoker companies recommended the use of a flue gas anslyzer to optimize combustion.
Right now "complete combustion just before it drops off the edge" is all we have to work with.
But...
If you use lots of air for combustion, that air has to go *somewhere* - up the stack.
Let's say you needed 'x' volume of air to achieve most excellent/perfect combustion. Will you still meet "complete before falling" at 1.20x? Sure. As long as it doesn't go too far to the other end of "Burns too fast and creeps back the bed towards the bin" - another out-fire
But the extra 20% (made up that number, LOL) will carry more of the heat up the stack.
So we adjust the baro damper, which "thins" the boiler stack gases with ambient. But that is DRAW, not TEMP of the gases.
Think of it like this:
If we were burning a bed of anthracite and wanted to extract the MOST BTUs from a given bed/volume (not the fastest, not the most likely to keep a flame bed going), what would it look like?
I've seen the hand-fed Anthracite bed pics with all the "dancing blue ladies" but not in our stokers. I'm thinking if I can learn the target, I can change my stoker a bit to get it there.
So...
Nobody has a flame they're really PROUD of? LOL
- CoalisCoolxWarm
- Member
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Western PA
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
- Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
- Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Ahh...but there is. And there isn't. haha.freetown fred wrote:C, just for the record, there's no such thing as PERFECT--there IS damn functional!!
There is prefect, and then there is what is practical for our uses. I'm looking for the first.
I have the second already- maybe closer to or farther away from perfect than some others here. But that is one thing I'm trying to learn. What is the ideal/perfect flame???
- Logs
- Member
- Posts: 1819
- Joined: Thu. Aug. 21, 2014 12:07 am
- Location: White Oak Pa
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby
- Coal Size/Type: Nut anthracite
- Other Heating: Fireplace and wood burner
I have the second already- maybe closer to or farther away from perfect than some others here. But that is one thing I'm trying to learn. What is the ideal/perfect flame???
The one that keeps you the warmest
The one that keeps you the warmest
- VigIIPeaBurner
- Member
- Posts: 2579
- Joined: Fri. Jan. 11, 2008 10:49 am
- Location: Pequest River Valley, Warren Co NJ
- Hot Air Coal Stoker Furnace: Keystoker Koker(down)
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vermont Casting Vigilant II 2310
- Other Heating: #2 Oil Furnace
like this ...trim.8172DB60-2F56-45B3-8403-BE8234C710D6.MOVLogs wrote:I have the second already- maybe closer to or farther away from perfect than some others here. But that is one thing I'm trying to learn. What is the ideal/perfect flame???
The one that keeps you the warmest
-
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 11416
- Joined: Wed. Nov. 05, 2008 5:11 pm
- Location: Kent CT
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: V ermont Castings 2310, Franco Belge 262
- Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood Modern Oak 114
- Coal Size/Type: nut and pea
The closest you will get is with minimum air for the feed rate applied without an excess of unburnt coal.CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:What is the ideal/perfect flame???
True perfection requires perfection in the uniform mixing of air with the coal. That in turn depends on the design perfection of the air handling parts.
Excess air can ensure zero CO, but also low CO2. If the unit has enough heat exchange to compensate for the higher gas temperature caused by excess air, it can still be very efficient.
-
- Member
- Posts: 2366
- Joined: Sun. Mar. 25, 2007 8:41 pm
- Location: Ithaca, New York
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
- Hand Fed Coal Boiler: former switzer CWW100-sold
- Coal Size/Type: rice
- Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker/unused
My perfect flame is one that does not jump through the fire inspection door and give you two burn scars. Still have not figured out why that happened......................................All I can think of
is possibly excess coal dust igniting and then the flame is following the extra air supply that is entering through the fire inspection door.
When things are running right(I think) my firebed has 1-2 inches of ash 2-3 inches of burning coal with yellow/orange flame that is reaching the bottom of the steam chest. Then there is the unburned coal that may have some dancing blue ladies in it like I used to have with my hand fed Switzter CWW100.
Edit today to add the following:
In the past with my Switzer hand fed CWW100 I have had a Smurf hiding in the ash pit with a flame thrower pushing foot long blue flames out the lower automatic air damper door.
is possibly excess coal dust igniting and then the flame is following the extra air supply that is entering through the fire inspection door.
When things are running right(I think) my firebed has 1-2 inches of ash 2-3 inches of burning coal with yellow/orange flame that is reaching the bottom of the steam chest. Then there is the unburned coal that may have some dancing blue ladies in it like I used to have with my hand fed Switzter CWW100.
Edit today to add the following:
In the past with my Switzer hand fed CWW100 I have had a Smurf hiding in the ash pit with a flame thrower pushing foot long blue flames out the lower automatic air damper door.
Last edited by lzaharis on Wed. Nov. 09, 2016 11:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Rob R.
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 17980
- Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
- Location: Chazy, NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
The stoker flames tend to be more orange because of the flyash lifting off the fire. If you reduce the air enough the flames wil turn blue. My EFM has mostly blue flames the way I have it set, but if I increase the feed and air settings the flame turns orange. Regardless, I stand by my statement that the color of the flames is not an indication of combustion efficiency - the amount of excess air in the flue gasses tells that story.CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:Well, I'd say yes and no to that.Rob R. wrote:Color has nothing to do with it. Ideally you want the coal to be done burning at the exact moment it clears the air holes in the grate. To put it another way, you want the coal burned, but do not want to blow air through ash. This applies once the fire has reached a steady state.
Some of the old stoker companies recommended the use of a flue gas anslyzer to optimize combustion.
Right now "complete combustion just before it drops off the edge" is all we have to work with.
But...
If you use lots of air for combustion, that air has to go *somewhere* - up the stack.
Let's say you needed 'x' volume of air to achieve most excellent/perfect combustion. Will you still meet "complete before falling" at 1.20x? Sure. As long as it doesn't go too far to the other end of "Burns too fast and creeps back the bed towards the bin" - another out-fire
But the extra 20% (made up that number, LOL) will carry more of the heat up the stack.
So we adjust the baro damper, which "thins" the boiler stack gases with ambient. But that is DRAW, not TEMP of the gases.
Think of it like this:
If we were burning a bed of anthracite and wanted to extract the MOST BTUs from a given bed/volume (not the fastest, not the most likely to keep a flame bed going), what would it look like?
I've seen the hand-fed Anthracite bed pics with all the "dancing blue ladies" but not in our stokers. I'm thinking if I can learn the target, I can change my stoker a bit to get it there.
So...
Nobody has a flame they're really PROUD of? LOL
- Rob R.
- Site Moderator
- Posts: 17980
- Joined: Fri. Dec. 28, 2007 4:26 pm
- Location: Chazy, NY
- Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM 520
- Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Jr
https://youtu.be/OiZRD1TevGY
https://youtu.be/TLA75-qXpf0
Note the difference in flame appearance - second video is double the feed and air setting.
https://youtu.be/TLA75-qXpf0
Note the difference in flame appearance - second video is double the feed and air setting.
- CoalisCoolxWarm
- Member
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Western PA
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
- Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
- Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Here's my flame from today. Idle fan only.
Lots of blue flames
Lots of blue flames
- CoalisCoolxWarm
- Member
- Posts: 2323
- Joined: Wed. Jan. 19, 2011 11:41 am
- Location: Western PA
- Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
- Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
- Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
- Other Heating: Oil Boiler
Thanks for the videos!Rob R. wrote:https://youtu.be/OiZRD1TevGY
https://youtu.be/TLA75-qXpf0
Note the difference in flame appearance - second video is double the feed and air setting.
Not sure how I missed this post...been going between computers and phone. Sorry.
Those videos seem to show the same thing I have. The second video obviously outputs more BTUs/hr, but I wonder about the BTUs per pound burning the second way versus the first?
Of course, the first air/fuel mixture is not likely to be a fast enough burn rate to service our boiler heating needs.