Would You Just Go Out Please!

 
ddahlgren
Member
Posts: 1769
Joined: Tue. Feb. 19, 2013 3:30 pm
Location: Mystic CT
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Contact:

Post by ddahlgren » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 1:53 pm

lobsterman wrote:Interestingly, the CO concentration increases also with warmer air.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef300233k?journalCode=enfuem#/doi/full/10.1021/ef300233k
If this right and more CO then Paul's thought gets more heat out does not match. King Coal said or at least thought / indicated and things I have read agree converting CO to CO2 releases more heat so heat left on the table when staved for air. Longer burn and incomplete but heat given away to do it. I suspect there is a window and hotter or colder outside the window and fuel wasted. Speculating too hot and not enough heat exchanger to catch all the heat too cold and combustion incomplete.
Last edited by ddahlgren on Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.


 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25560
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:04 pm

lobsterman wrote:Paul- did you mean secondary air?
Nope, primary air, LM.

Channeling exhaust heat down near the ash drawer area to help preheat the primary air makes a big difference in burn efficiency. Steve proved that just by taking a good stove and making it into a better stove by making it a base heater that heated the same space but with much less coal burned to do it.

Fuel and air, both have to come up to a certain temp before they can combine well to make heat. The better the input of heat before the fire, the more complete the combustion.

Paul

 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25560
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:07 pm

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
Rob R. wrote:Impressive.

What are you burning for coal?
Plutonium.
Seeing the stove glow without the need of mica ? :D

Paul

 
lobsterman
Member
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue. Sep. 28, 2010 7:51 am
Location: Cape Cod
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby, 1980 Fully restored by Larry Trainer
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Chubby Jr, early model with removable grates

Post by lobsterman » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:20 pm

Well there is no argument that the base-heater's efficiency increases due to that mode but that is due to the longer path. Every stove will be warm below the grate. My Chubby right now is purring along at 300 on the heart of the barrel and is 150 in the region below the grate. I am preheating input air very well. The front of my ashpan is also at 150.

 
lobsterman
Member
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue. Sep. 28, 2010 7:51 am
Location: Cape Cod
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby, 1980 Fully restored by Larry Trainer
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Chubby Jr, early model with removable grates

Post by lobsterman » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:32 pm

ddahlgren wrote:
lobsterman wrote:Interestingly, the CO concentration increases also with warmer air.

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ef300233k?journalCode=enfuem#/doi/full/10.1021/ef300233k
If this right and more CO then Paul's thought gets more heat out does not match. King Coal said or at least thought / indicated and things I have read agree converting CO to CO2 releases more heat so heat left on the table when staved for air. Longer burn and incomplete but heat given away to do it. I suspect there is a window and hotter or colder outside the window and fuel wasted. Speculating too hot and not enough heat exchanger to catch all the heat too cold and combustion incomplete.
Dave- I don't think these are mutually exclusive. There can be less CO per mass of coal burned but still more net CO. It appears the biggest gain is from having less unburned carbon in the fly ash than making less CO.

 
User avatar
Sunny Boy
Member
Posts: 25560
Joined: Mon. Nov. 11, 2013 1:40 pm
Location: Central NY
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Post by Sunny Boy » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:36 pm

lobsterman wrote:Well there is no argument that the base-heater's efficiency increases due to that mode but that is due to the longer path. Every stove will be warm below the grate. My Chubby right now is purring along at 300 on the heart of the barrel and is 150 in the region below the grate. I am preheating input air very well.
If that were the case then kitchen ranges would be the equal, or better than base heaters, as far as coal burning efficiency. And we know they are not.

The reason being is not just length, but where the hot flue gases heat gets channeled to.

My small range can equal, or beat base heaters for heat extraction because of it's longer flue pathway and greater surface area. About 5 square feet more than my #6 base heater and several feet more flue path. But, that little range can't burn coal as efficiently (completely) as a my base heater can because, even with those long flues heating lots of surface area, the ash drawer area of ranges are only heated from above and on one end, not those places plus the entire underneath of the ash drawer, like a base heater does. And that difference gets more heat, and sooner as it comes in, to near the openings of the primary damper.

Paul

 
lobsterman
Member
Posts: 727
Joined: Tue. Sep. 28, 2010 7:51 am
Location: Cape Cod
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby, 1980 Fully restored by Larry Trainer
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Chubby Jr, early model with removable grates

Post by lobsterman » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 2:54 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:
lobsterman wrote:Well there is no argument that the base-heater's efficiency increases due to that mode but that is due to the longer path. Every stove will be warm below the grate. My Chubby right now is purring along at 300 on the heart of the barrel and is 150 in the region below the grate. I am preheating input air very well.
If that were the case then kitchen ranges would be the equal, or better than base heaters, as far as coal burning efficiency. And we know they are not.

Paul
Not the case, and not what I implied. Of course, the whole geometry of the base-heater is important for its efficiency. I am only claiming that this efficiency is not mainly due to heating the primary air. My Chubby does that too very well. Besides the efficiency gain from warmer combustion input air is small.


 
scalabro
Member
Posts: 4197
Joined: Wed. Oct. 03, 2012 9:53 am
Location: Western Massachusetts
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford 40, PP Stewart No. 14, Abendroth Bros "Record 40"
Coal Size/Type: Stove / Anthracite.
Other Heating: Oil fired, forced hot air.

Post by scalabro » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 3:31 pm

I can vouch for William's long burn times as we have identical C40's. Except, he has the rare iron guard installed at the load door opening :D Also, his must be a bit less primary air "leaky" than mine.

He obviously has a source of top quality rock too :)

50+ hours ..... sheesh!

 
User avatar
wsherrick
Member
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed. Jun. 18, 2008 6:04 am
Location: High In The Poconos
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Post by wsherrick » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 3:53 pm

Rob R. wrote:Impressive.

What are you burning for coal?
I am burning stove sized coal that came straight from the breaker at Reading. This is a very good batch of coal. It has that glassy sheen to it and it sounded like glass when it was unloaded.

 
User avatar
wsherrick
Member
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed. Jun. 18, 2008 6:04 am
Location: High In The Poconos
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Post by wsherrick » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 3:54 pm

freetown fred wrote:Hey Wm. What is a peculating???????????? ;) Gotta love spell-check!! :shock:
OOPS. Late night typing. Percolating. There I fixed it. :D

 
User avatar
wsherrick
Member
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed. Jun. 18, 2008 6:04 am
Location: High In The Poconos
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Post by wsherrick » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 3:59 pm

joeq wrote:William, would its long windedness (?) be contributed to a little primary air leakage? I know people have said these stoves weren't all made super tight. Even with the MPDs made the way they are, there's still a flow available, even when totally closed. But if the stove was built airtight, wouldn't the fire die sooner? Not that it's a bad thing. I know if you "really" wanted it out, you could make it so.
PS. Why are you posting so early in the AM. Couldn't sleep? Still digesting after Turkey day?
I was up late because I was being a bad boy. I should have been on the dialysis machine two hours before hand.

Yes, there is a tiny bit of air leakage where the grate shaker bar extends out through its little slot. The primary door, the dampers and the clinker door are all air tight with absolutely no leaks. It probably is the little bit of air leaking around the grate shaker that the fire is using. But I also had the dampers open just a little bit.

 
User avatar
wsherrick
Member
Posts: 3744
Joined: Wed. Jun. 18, 2008 6:04 am
Location: High In The Poconos
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Glenwood Base Heater, Crawford Base Heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Crawford Base Heater, Glenwood, Stanley Argand
Coal Size/Type: Chestnut, Stove Size

Post by wsherrick » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 4:12 pm

Here is another picture taken at the same time with the door shut.
These stoves are purposely designed to be able to have such long burn times. The combustion efficiency is so high in these stoves that the fire burns until there is no fuel left to burn. All that is left is powdery ash.
This Crawford has a heavy brick lining as well as a suspended fire pot in which all the hot exhaust SURROUNDS the fire pot itself as they descend into the base heating chambers.
On this stove the exhaust not only heats the sides of the ash pit but the entire bottom as well. This boosts the temperature of the entering primary air by a great deal.
The fact that the entire fire pot is insulated from any great heat loss by design renders the most perfect environment for almost complete combustion.
That along with the entire stove plus back pipe being active heat radiators renders these stoves beyond comparison.
That's the reason you get 50 plus hours of burning.

Attachments

DSC00983.jpg

Crawford photo taken with doors shut.

.JPG | 65.5KB | DSC00983.jpg

 
User avatar
ONEDOLLAR
Verified Business Rep.
Posts: 1866
Joined: Thu. Dec. 01, 2011 6:09 pm
Location: Sooner Country Oklahoma
Hand Fed Coal Stove: 2014 Chubby Prototype
Coal Size/Type: Nut/Anthracite
Contact:

Post by ONEDOLLAR » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 4:13 pm

scalabro wrote:50+ hours ..... sheesh!
I think I went 30 something on my Crawford#2.. 50 hours... WOW! :shock:

 
ddahlgren
Member
Posts: 1769
Joined: Tue. Feb. 19, 2013 3:30 pm
Location: Mystic CT
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404
Contact:

Post by ddahlgren » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 4:23 pm

No doubt the 1200 a done deal with what you say never have seen one and would not dare comment. If no CO to CO2 conversion then heat left on the table. If all conditions added up there is a sweet spot wind that can be pretty wide but dos not extend to painfully sle or painfully hot but for different reasons. I also suspect stove design has a lot to decide the sixe of the window and no one measures CO so who is to know. Is secondary air ring winking out maybe a clue? Been told when humming along lasts though out burn so might be a clue. In your case if woke up the fire to real heating temps like it was cold and they light off the question is answered. With the broad operating range your stoves have if the have secondary fire ring s to light CO off it might be a tell all.

 
User avatar
Photog200
Member
Posts: 2063
Joined: Tue. Feb. 05, 2013 7:11 pm
Location: Fulton, NY
Baseburners & Antiques: Colonial Clarion cook stove, Kineo #15 base burner & 2 Geneva Oak Andes #517's
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Chestnut
Other Heating: Electric Baseboard

Post by Photog200 » Sat. Nov. 26, 2016 4:35 pm

When I was using my Kineo BB with the suspended firepot I got 48 hrs once. I wnt out of town for a weekend and when I got back was expecting the stove to be out. There was enough coals left to get the fire going again. The house was still at 68° in December. I could never get that performance with the Andes with just the back pipe. William is not exaggerating the performance of these stoves.

Randy


Post Reply

Return to “Hand Fired Coal Stoves & Furnaces Using Anthracite”