Insulate the basement walls?

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:28 pm

More than likely, I'll never insulate my basement walls. That being said; I'd never try to talk anyone out of insulating basement walls.

One word of caution: If you don't have good drainage, moisture in the ground can freeze, and push block walls in. A little heat lose through the block can also be a good thing.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II), D.S. 1600 Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)


Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: 69dartgt On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:37 pm

Thanks for all the info. Fortunately I don't have any water issues because of regrading and repiping the downspouts a few years ago. I will fill some of the small cracks that form in the block walls over time before I put insulation board on the walls. I was thinking of putting 1/2" foil foam board on the block and then stud up the walls in front of them and use the fiberglass insulation that the previous owner put in the floor joists for the 1st floor. Should be about R11 or so when I am done.
69dartgt
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Magnum

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: 69dartgt On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 6:41 pm

Starting Out wrote:Using only 3 ton of coal is really good. Other people would really love that. You only live by Allentown, get somebody with a pick up truck to run to Schuylkill county and haul it yourself. It is going for 160 to 190 a ton depending who you get from. If I had a stove like that I wouldn't worry about insulating the basement. Just my opinion, I wish I had a stove, I have the exact set up you have. I have a friend who has a house like ours and a finished basement, she only uses two ton, so all the work to me is not worth it. She also has a Harmon Mag.


Fortunately I have the ability to use a truck and dump trailer from work to make an annual run to Tamaqua for the coal. $150 a ton is a nice price instead of the $260 or so that it is delivered for around here.
69dartgt
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Magnum

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: coalder On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 8:20 pm

The subject of " R- Factor" has me greatly intrigued!! For which, contrary to popular belief, I feel is a myth. And you can argue all you want, however, I will give you a scenario: Go to a convenient store & pour boiling water into a paper thin Styrofoam cup & you can hold it, right? According to theorists that
cup has an R factor of miniscule value. Now multiply that cup at least 10 fold & it's only about r-11. However that foam board insulates like nothing else!! Do the coffee cup test & you will be convinced. Just a redneck analogy thats hard to argue with.
Jim
coalder
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:28 pm

69dartgt wrote:I was thinking of putting 1/2" foil foam board on the block and then stud up the walls in front of them and use the fiberglass insulation that the previous owner put in the floor joists for the 1st floor. Should be about R11 or so when I am done.

I will never again use fiberglass insulation if there is an alternative. It may theoretically be R11 but I don't believe it -- too much air movement through and around it, hard to get it to truly fill a cavity. That fiberglass between your floor joists -- if it's anything like mine it is falling down and full of dead rodents and their poop. I finally had an asbestos abatement company come in and remove it all, and I wouldn't have wanted to re-use it for anything. The removal cost was a lot less than for asbestos, but the guys suited up the same way in their space suits and respirators and air-handling equipment. It was WAY more work than I would have guessed, very glad I didn't do it myself. :cry:

For any insulation I keep reading that sealing gaps to stop air movement/infiltration is every bit as important as R value. Unless you are finishing the walls for living space you might be better to use the same or thicker foam and skip the fiberglass, with lots of attention to sealing the all the edges where the foam meets the walls. I'm not sure, but building codes might call for a non-flammable paint over the foam.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:40 pm

titleist1 wrote:Somebody recently had a link for the btu's sucked out by a non insulated basement but i can't find it at the moment....anybody know where that is?


Here it is again ;)

Basement Heatloss_1MillionBTUsperDay_Excerpt.pdf
(174.51 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
Select:BBcode: [nepafile=77712]Basement Heatloss_1MillionBTUsperDay_Excerpt.pdf[/nepafile]


A real eye opener :shock:
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:50 pm

I also believe R factor is a useless thing. We experimented with foam a lot in new housing. I know my hunting camp went from unheatable to open the doors and windows with just 1" of blueboard on the roof. It still has uninsulated floors and is up on posts to allow air flow. No one would believe it.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Other Heating: Gas boiler backup/main
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:07 am

KLook wrote:I also believe R factor is a useless thing. We experimented with foam a lot in new housing. I know my hunting camp went from unheatable to open the doors and windows with just 1" of blueboard on the roof. It still has uninsulated floors and is up on posts to allow air flow. No one would believe it.

Kevin


R-Factor is misused and misleading, IMHO. R-Factor is easily and quickly degraded with air movement. Fiberglass products only approach their rated values IF NO AIR is exchanged. A large portion of their "R-Factor" is simply due to the AIR they "hold" in their spaces. Not all, but more than significant.

Stop air infiltration first, then seek R-values. Products like foam and foam sprays do BOTH at the same time, which is a big reason they are so effective.

Foam melts and burns. It is easily breached by rodents. Remediate these and it can serve you nicely.

So can fiberglass, IF you can stop the air from flowing AND keep it DRY. Not just "dry" but DRY ;)
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler


Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: Rob R. On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 7:33 am

My dad has insulated about half of his basement with blueboard, and wood paneling. The temperature of his basement stays a few degrees warmer now, and that area is much more comfortable to sit in...especially if you are close to the wall.

Dad also had his master bedroom and bathroom re-insulated this year. It is on the southwest corner of the house, and was always cold and drafty. Although the house is 6" construction, the insulation had been thrown in their half-assed and there was a lot of gaps. This year he had contractors insulate it with Roxul rock-wool insulation, which is heavy and stiff compared to fiberglass. The results are amazing. The bedroom is now very quiet, you can't hear the wind blow, cars go by, etc. It also stays in the low 60's without the heat on, which is a big change from before.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: Sting On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:14 am

Spending your discretionary dollars on Insulation over alternative heating conversions is always my advice
that said:
May I pppp-point out ... some of us live in rather old houses. Those old stone and rubble foundations are very susceptible to freeze thaw penetration that leads to decomposition and destruction from heaving.
When you insulate on the INSIDE of an old basement; you may be building a short sighted fix, as the wall
[ now protected from the meager warmth of the "bats"ment ]
will be fully exposed to the cool penetrating in .

Its FAR far more expensive to insulate on the cold side of the structure but that is a better long term solution.
Start outside and ABOVE the rim joist and go as deep as you can afford

http://structuretech1.com/rim-joist-insulation/

Kind Regards
Sting
Sting
 
Other Heating: OBSO Lennox Pulse "Air Scorcher" burning NG

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:44 am

Sting wrote:When you insulate on the INSIDE of an old basement; you may be building a short sighted fix, as the wall
[ now protected from the meager warmth of the "bats"ment ]
will be fully exposed to the cool penetrating in

:lol: "bats"ment. I like that. Though my bats prefer the attic.

Somebody here -- I don't remember the thread -- excavated a few inches down outside an old rock foundation, put down blue board, then filled the dirt back in. Presumably that prevented the soil close to the foundation from freezing and heaving the rock.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: waldo lemieux On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:44 am

Sting wrote:Its FAR far more expensive to insulate on the cold side of the structure but that is a better long term solution.
Start outside and ABOVE the rim joist and go as deep as you can afford
:idea:

This tech is the one I use in all my new construction. Its called "outstation" I can tell you that it results in the driest, warmest below grade space there is. Its no more expensive in new construction, but it is pricey for retro fit applications.
waldo lemieux
 
Stove/Furnace Make: efm
Stove/Furnace Model: s-20

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: 69dartgt On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:45 am

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:
titleist1 wrote:Somebody recently had a link for the btu's sucked out by a non insulated basement but i can't find it at the moment....anybody know where that is?


Here it is again ;)

Basement Heatloss_1MillionBTUsperDay_Excerpt.pdf


A real eye opener :shock:


This is what got me thinking I should do something about the basement walls. I'm not of fan off just throwing money out in the ground.
69dartgt
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Magnum

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:25 pm

69dartgt wrote:This is what got me thinking I should do something about the basement walls. I'm not of fan off just throwing money out in the ground.


I agree. It seems we are accustomed to, "It's a basement, of course it's cool"

It's on my list in the near future- at least the mostly exposed and least insulated section.

I knew it would make a difference, but how much...seems almost unreal ;)

How many insulated rim joists have you seen? I haven't seen many, yet there is often sheathing and a 2x10 or whatever and nothing else. Everyone uses that space for electric lines and such, but NO INSULATION.
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: rberq On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:51 pm

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:How many insulated rim joists have you seen? I haven't seen many, yet there is often sheathing and a 2x10 or whatever and nothing else.
Except us old-house people where the rim joist is an 8 X 8 or larger timber. It took me awhile to figure out what this "rim joist" insulation was about. :lol: Of course you can still get air infiltration around the edges of a big timber.
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane