Insulate the basement walls?

Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: 69dartgt On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:05 am

Just curious if any one has real-life experience with the before and after difference from insulating basement walls. We live in a average ranch size house with a Harman Mag Stoker in the basement. I burn about 3 ton of Lehigh :D rice a year and know i should insulate the block basement walls. I'm wondering how much coal I will save because I am not heating the walls and ground around the house? Any info or speculation is appreciated.
69dartgt
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Magnum


Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: Starting Out On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:16 am

Using only 3 ton of coal is really good. Other people would really love that. You only live by Allentown, get somebody with a pick up truck to run to Schuylkill county and haul it yourself. It is going for 160 to 190 a ton depending who you get from. If I had a stove like that I wouldn't worry about insulating the basement. Just my opinion, I wish I had a stove, I have the exact set up you have. I have a friend who has a house like ours and a finished basement, she only uses two ton, so all the work to me is not worth it. She also has a Harmon Mag.
Last edited by Starting Out on Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Starting Out
 
Other Heating: Burnham Oil Boiler with Beckett Gun

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: Hambden Bob On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:21 am

Insulation is one of the few Home Improvements that pays for itself and then pays You once it's declared "Free and Clear" I've had arguments with alot of cheap,piker Bastards that couldn't see that due to having to dislodge that wallet out of their pocket. Before I would do any type of insulatingof a basement,make damned sure that You've accomodated any moisture/water intrusion issues before You cap those walls off and create a mold greenhouse....... Dry is Good,Comfortable Piggy-Backs right on top of Dry....... Stop by more often,My Friend..... :up:
Hambden Bob
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman 1998 Magnum Stoker
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Blower Model Coal Chubby 1982-Serial#0097
Coal Size/Type: Rice-A-Roni ! / Nut
Other Heating: Pro-Pain Forced Air

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: lowfog01 On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:23 am

69dartgt wrote:Just curious if any one has real-life experience with the before and after difference from insulating basement walls.


We have split level. The lower "basement" room is cinder block construction. When we moved in they had only put paneling up on the cider block. It was a while before we could do anything with that room and boy was it cold down there. That's cold by Virginia standards.

When we finally could afford to we put up foam insulation with a dry wall finish. What a huge difference! We didn't have the Mark I then but still the difference was noticeable; no more drafts and a much more stable temperature that could be maintained with the whole house furnace .

This our third year with the Mark I in that room and it's amazing how warm it is down there. I keep the stove at a stove front temp of 150* or 200* and get a pleasant 75* or 77* degree room. I probably could go lower but I'm afraid I'd lose the draft if I did. The stove is working great.

I say insulate your walls and you'll be very happy you did. Lisa
lowfog01
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Mark II & Mark I
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: freetown fred On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:32 am

Don't think it will change your coal consumption but if the basements damp, that it'll help a lot.
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: titleist1 On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:35 am

I put 1" of foam board insulation on the outside of one of our basement block walls last spring when we had it dug up for some work. The inside of the block walls is not insulated or finished, our mag stoker is in the basement, we burn between 4-5 ton per year. Can't tell you coal usage difference at this point. Measured two blocks from the corner each way, the insulated wall is 5 degrees warmer than the non insulated wall....and the non insulated measuring spot is closer to the coal stove.

Somebody recently had a link for the btu's sucked out by a non insulated basement but i can't find it at the moment....anybody know where that is?
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: coalder On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:47 am

I to used 1 inch foamboard to insulate my basement. Made huge difference!! My boiler keeps it real toasty. Just went down & took IR gun to a totally exposed on the outside wall25 ft from boiler. Interior wall temp 69.8. I feel it's well worth the investment.
Jim
coalder
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:01 pm

coalder wrote:I to used 1 inch foamboard to insulate my basement.

How did you attach the foam to the walls? Did you seal around the edges with spray foam cans to prevent convection between foam boards and concrete?
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane


Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: rberq On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:04 pm

Hambden Bob wrote:Before I would do any type of insulating of a basement,make damned sure that You've accommodated any moisture/water intrusion issues before You cap those walls off and create a mold greenhouse.

Yes. General rule for home ownership is, WATER IS YOUR ENEMY. I wish somebody had forcefully pointed that out to me when I first bought a house. It would have saved lots of problems over the years. :(
rberq
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: DS Machine 1300 with hopper
Coal Size/Type: Blaschak Anthracite Nut
Other Heating: Oil hot water radiators, propane

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: Qtown1835 On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:32 pm

titleist1 wrote:I put 1" of foam board insulation on the outside of one of our basement block walls last spring when we had it dug up for some work. The inside of the block walls is not insulated or finished, our mag stoker is in the basement, we burn between 4-5 ton per year. Can't tell you coal usage difference at this point. Measured two blocks from the corner each way, the insulated wall is 5 degrees warmer than the non insulated wall....and the non insulated measuring spot is closer to the coal stove.

Somebody recently had a link for the btu's sucked out by a non insulated basement but i can't find it at the moment....anybody know where that is?


Here is a link: http://www.sensiblehouse.org/nrg_heatloss.htm

Lots of info to sift through on the internet.

The biggest savings for insulating your walls will show if you have an exposed basement. Exterior walls that are subject to 0-30* average temperatures. Basements below grade do not see those types of exposures and you lose less heat. the delta for outside of 0* and inside of 70* is 70* for an exposed basement wall. The delta for a below grade basement @70* is more like a 20* delta. 1" of foam board providing R4 should reduce thermal loss by about 80% assuming below grade 8"block wall with no insulation vs 1" insulation.

Very rudimentary calculation. Heat loss=U factor x Area x Delta

8" Block wall
U=0.9
Area=1sqft
Delta=20 (Assumes 50* soil and 70* inside temp)
0.9 x 1 x 20=18btu/h per SQFT


8 Block Wall with 1" foam
U=0.20
Area=1 sqft
Delta=20 (Assumes 50* soil and 70* inside temp)
.20 x 1 x 20= 4btu/h per Sqft

Assume 30x50 basement with 8' ceiling. (1280sqft)

1280x18btuh=23,040 buth (Plain block)
1280x4buth=5,120btuh (Block and 1" foam)

Decrease of 17,920 btuh by adding 1" foam or about 1.43lb/hr of coal.
Assume 120 heating days. 120 x 24 x 1.43= 4,118.4 lbs of coal savings or about $329/yr.

ROI to insulate a 50x30 basement is about 3years.
Its about $0.75/sqft for 1" foam board and materials if you install yourself.

Again these calcs are VERY rough estimate.
Qtown1835
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman MKIII
Coal Size/Type: Nut & Rice Lehigh
Other Heating: EFM SPK600

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: McGiever On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:37 pm

If one insulates over the course of a couple seasons, best to do the upper/higher areas around perimeter first. Hotter air is higher and outside low air temp plus frozen ground temp really sucks heat thru masonry walls. Mke sure wood rim joist up above masonry have good amount of fiberglass insulation too.

Heck, give me the free ton of coal every year for the next 10, 20 or even 30 years. $$$ :shock: $$$
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: Qtown1835 On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:42 pm

McGiever wrote:Heck, give me the free ton of coal every year for the next 10, 20 or even 30 years. $$$ :shock: $$$


You just need to look at pink walls for the next 10, 20 or 30 years :D
Qtown1835
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker '81 KA4 (online 1/16/17)
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman MKIII
Coal Size/Type: Nut & Rice Lehigh
Other Heating: EFM SPK600

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: coalder On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 12:52 pm

rberq wrote:
coalder wrote:I to used 1 inch foamboard to insulate my basement.

How did you attach the foam to the walls? Did you seal around the edges with spray foam cans to prevent convection between foam boards and concrete?


Not saying this is best way, but here is how I did it. Took 2x3's & shot em to wall with Hilti gun 2 ft on center. Do not try this around block edges, they will blow out. Here use tapcons. Then I cut 1 inch foil faced foamboard & glued in between the 2x3's. Hint, run glue lines vertical to allow any possible condensation a chance to run down wall. Also kept everything 1 1/2" off floor. Then took a " touch & foam gun" & sealed where foam met furring, & along top. Did not seal bottom. Then covered with sheet rock.
Jim
coalder
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: harman sf 160
Coal Size/Type: Nut
Other Heating: wood parlor stove

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: freetown fred On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:21 pm

Yep, that's the way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! KISS
freetown fred
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: HITZER 50-93
Coal Size/Type: BLASCHAK Nut/Stove mix

Re: Insulate the basement walls?

PostBy: coalkirk On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 1:36 pm

Yes definitely insulate the block walls. Make sure you have resolved all water intrusions issues as others have said. I used foil covered foam board on mine. Only one side is silver. That faces to the heated side. Made a huge difference in basement comfort level. Can't quantify coal savings but it has to be positive. Also just as important seal and insulate the joist end bays at the band joist. Use expanding foam in any gaps then stuff the bay with fiberglass.
coalkirk
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1981 EFM DF520
Coal Size/Type: anthracite/rice coal