Problem connecting to masonry chimney

Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: Tryingitout On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:52 pm

Need some help connecting my Keystoker k-2 to my masonry chimney. In order stay within the proper ceiling clearance at the connection, I need to use double wall insulated pipe. The problem with that is I need to 90 into the chimney, and the don't seem to make a 90. The only other way I can think of is a tee with a cap, and drop out the bottom, but not sure if that acceptable.

Thanks Garey
Tryingitout
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 30-95 EZ Flow Sadly Retired
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Propane furnace/elec. water heater


Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 9:58 pm

You can use single walled pipe along with a metal heat shield hanging down from the ceiling. Or even 2 heat sheilds which will cut down the clearance needed immensely.

How much room do you have between the top of the pipe and the ceiling/bottom of joists?
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: Tryingitout On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:21 pm

I have 4". I can easily install a couple sheets of metal, with air spaces. I am not sure how to calculate the clearance if I do.
Tryingitout
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 30-95 EZ Flow Sadly Retired
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Propane furnace/elec. water heater

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:36 pm

I'm don't know how to 'calculate' the clearance, I could only tell you what I would do in your situation. I sent a PM to another member that may be able to do calculations.

I would do the obvious, which is 1st piece of metal 1 inch above the pipe, 2nd piece of metal 1 inch above that. should be enough room for a 3rd if necessary.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: KLook On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 10:43 pm

I don't know if there is an official calculation, but one sheet, 2 inches from the pipe and 2 inches from the combustibles will do the trick. Put any fasteners off to the sides and just hang the metal from them.

Kevin
KLook
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Harman VF 3000
Coal Size/Type: rice, bagged, Blaschak
Other Heating: Gas boiler backup/main
Stove/Furnace Model: VF 3000

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: Tryingitout On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:25 pm

OK thanks, I will try that. After I get everything hooked up I will keep an eye on the temps. I just worry about an over fire, and super heating the pipe. I have had that with my Hitzer, but that is all triple wall.

Thanks for your responses!
Tryingitout
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KAA-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer model 30-95 EZ Flow Sadly Retired
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Other Heating: Propane furnace/elec. water heater

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Thu Dec 29, 2016 11:29 pm

Your welcome and lets us know how it works out.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 12:53 am

Be careful....

http://inspectapedia.com/chimneys/Woodstove_Fire_Clearance_Codes.php

BTW, "NFPA.org" is supposed to be the holder of the fire code that is quoted and used by insurance companies and code inspectors and municipalities.

Yet, they CONCEAL the information, requiring either extortion (aka "buy my book"), or identity-harvesting (aka "must sign up for an account before accessing free online information")

So make sure you comply with the "secret code" when dealing with clearances....if you can find a copy.
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler


Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:21 am

Here ya go - from the NFPA 211. A PDF file of the code for connector clearances and methods of reducing clearance (the PDF file name says it's for stoves, but it's for connectors. And the same for reducing clearnces for solid appliances right below that.

I've posted these a few times. Maybe these should be made into a sticky ??

Paul
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Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: SWPaDon On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 1:38 am

Going by the NFPA codes it won't work.

Maybe make your own 'triple wall' pipe? That will require 3 elbows, graduated sizes upward, screwed together and using small strips of metal between them as legs?

Where there's a will there's a way.

P.S. I agree that maybe the fire codes should be made a sticky. This same stuff has been coming up a lot lately.
SWPaDon
 
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: Clayton 1600M
Coal Size/Type: Bituminous
Other Heating: Oil furnace

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: McGiever On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 8:12 am

How much wood? Maybe do some creative joist rework??? "Trimmer joists" is one way. :idea: Goggle that.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:16 am

The other problem with the NFPA codes is the generic "unlisted" category.

If you have a stove and don't have a "modern" manual for it (think old coal stove) that lists NFPA/UL clearance recommendations, you get to start at "36 inches minimum clearance" and then start with any reduction methods from there.

If you have a stove and it says 18" clearance, you get to start there and apply any reduction techniques (often down to a minimum).

Both stoves could be identical in construction, but one will get your home owners insurance cancelled, because the "inspector" can't use his head for more than a hat rack.

Which is the point about making the code FREELY available. It is treated as fact and law, yet the details are hidden from the public eye.

More to your specific situation: Horizontal runs of pipe might be treated differently than vertical runs. I didn't see any references to horizontal runs in that section of code posted above (nor in the Hearth source pages).

And the rant about generic clearances would likely apply to "building your own" triple wall or whatever pipe. If it doesn't have a mfr UL number and recommendation on it, the laws of physics do not apply- at least according to most insurance companies.

Whatever solution you use, be sure to meet the safety regs- AND keep a copy with your furnace. In my experience, the inspectors don't know the details, just the generic. It's up to YOU to prove it is safe.

As for elbows, are you talking about at the top or bottom of your vertical run?

Many of us have a tee at the bottom with a cleanout cap on the lower end, and a tee at the top with a cap on the one horizontal end as a cleanout for the horizontal run.

Here's an early pic of mine, showing the top tee. The bottom elbow was replaced this year with a tee as well. Had some trouble finding a heavy gauge tee until now.

StovePipe.jpg
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CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:22 am

CoalisCoolxWarm wrote:The other problem with the NFPA codes is the generic "unlisted" category.

If you have a stove and don't have a "modern" manual for it (think old coal stove) that lists NFPA/UL clearance recommendations, you get to start at "36 inches minimum clearance" and then start with any reduction methods from there.

If you have a stove and it says 18" clearance, you get to start there and apply any reduction techniques (often down to a minimum).

Both stoves could be identical in construction, but one will get your home owners insurance cancelled, because the "inspector" can't use his head for more than a hat rack.

Which is the point about making the code FREELY available. It is treated as fact and law, yet the details are hidden from the public eye.

More to your specific situation: Horizontal runs of pipe might be treated differently than vertical runs. I didn't see any references to horizontal runs in that section of code posted above (nor in the Hearth source pages).

Because at close distances a big part of the heat that is given off is thermal radiation, which unlike convection transferred heat, goes in all directions equally. So it doesn't matter if the pipe is vertical, or horizontal, it can still start a fire just as easily either way.

And the rant about generic clearances would likely apply to "building your own" triple wall or whatever pipe. If it doesn't have a mfr UL number and recommendation on it, the laws of physics do not apply- at least according to most insurance companies.

Whatever solution you use, be sure to meet the safety regs- AND keep a copy with your furnace. In my experience, the inspectors don't know the details, just the generic. It's up to YOU to prove it is safe.

As for elbows, are you talking about at the top or bottom of your vertical run?

Many of us have a tee at the bottom with a cleanout cap on the lower end, and a tee at the top with a cap on the one horizontal end as a cleanout for the horizontal run.

Here's an early pic of mine, showing the top tee. The bottom elbow was replaced this year with a tee as well. Had some trouble finding a heavy gauge tee until now.

StovePipe.jpg
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 10:32 am

Sunny Boy wrote:Here ya go - from the NFPA 211. A PDF file of the code for connector clearances and methods of reducing clearance (the PDF file name says it's for stoves, but it's for connectors. And the same for reducing clearnces for solid appliances right below that.

I've posted these a few times. Maybe these should be made into a sticky ??

Paul

You make a thread up, I'll sticky it. ;)
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: Problem connecting to masonry chimney

PostBy: CoalisCoolxWarm On: Fri Dec 30, 2016 11:09 am

Sunny Boy wrote:Because at close distances a big part of the heat that is given off is thermal radiation, which unlike convection transferred heat, goes in all directions equally. So it doesn't matter if the pipe is vertical, or horizontal, it can still start a fire just as easily either way.


Again, to the regs, why does it specifically state "vertical" when discussing flue pipe clearances?

*I* understand your point, but where is that codified in the regs? (Maybe I missed it?)
CoalisCoolxWarm
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KA-6
Hand Fed Coal Furnace: old Sears rebuilt, bituminous- offline as of winter 2014
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Buckwheat
Other Heating: Oil Boiler