Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:28 am

There's a reason that there's two primary dampers placed apart in the ash door. That's to give more even air feed under the grates. See how left/right evenly burned the ash looks in the pan by using the same amount of opening on both primary dampers. You might find that with using one damper for all the air feed there is more unburned bit of coal showing up off on the other side of the pan.

When the coals are burning well you won't need much secondary air, if any. That all depends on how air-tight your stove's loading door, mica windows, barrel seams, and that round cover under the bonnet are. If they leak alot they become more of the secondary air source, so less is needed from the secondary damper. If they seal well then you'll need to use more secondary damper. How the flames react will tell you. You want the secondary gases to burn, but with "lazy" flames, not doing the jitter-bug. That indicates a slower gas flow to give more time for heat to transfer to the room.

After a reload, and the secondary is open more to help burn off the greater amount of volatile gases of a fresh batch, the color is more yellow. When the yellow burns off to blue (blue indicates hotter flames and more complete combustion) then you can close the secondary down just enough to maintain those blues in a lazy dance.

Notice as you add more secondary the dancing gets faster. Add too much secondary air and the air/gas ratio gets too lean to support combustion and the blues disappear. But the highly diluted volatile gas is still there. Same when there isn't enough secondary air. The gas is still there but now it's too rich to ignite.....unless you suddenly open the secondary, or the loading door. Then it can cause the notorious puff-back. Sometimes explosively enough to do damage !!!!! So never bury the fire with fresh coal. Always put on only enough coal at a time that you can still see red glowing coals through each coal layer. Better to fill up the firebed in layers than smoother the fire and have a potentially explosive gas build up in the stove and pipe. And never, ever, choke off all the secondary air so much that the flames disappear.

So far your only using two of the three dampers that give best control for heat output. When you have an MPD installed you'll be adding another 1/3 to your control ability. And, when you have an MPD in the pipe, that roaring that indicates a lot of heat is going up the chimney will be easy to reduce/prevent.

Think of the MPD as a brake on a vehicle rolling downhill. Using it helps maintain a safe speed. Right now your using the primary as the break,..... but that's like just lifting the gas pedal and using the engine as the break. Works ok on a slight down slope, but not good on a steep hill. Then think of cold weather's strong draft as a steep downhill. You need more MPD "braking" to help maintain a safe speed. Warmer weather is more like a slight downhill - you need less MPD "braking".

Because the MPD plate purposely has holes in it, plus they never fit the pipe well enough to completely seal around the edge, you can not shut off the flue gas flow 100%. That's a safety feature so that you can't completely shut off the pipe and have the gases back up into the house.

If you have a good drafting chimney system, you often can run the stove with the MPD closed. That small amount of MPD holes and loose-ish fit that's left can sometimes be all that's needed to maintain a fire, while slowing the flue gas flow to allow more time for heat to transfer to the house, rather than racing up the chimney.

So,... it's primary dampers to feed the fire and set the heat level you want,..... secondary damper to burn the secondary gases,.... and then the MPD to control the heat flow out. Because of so many setup variables, it's a balancing act that is unique to each stove/chimney system. By experimenting you'll find what combination of damper settings (and when), will work best for your situation. So anyone else's settings should only be considered a general guide to find what works best for your setup.

And I strongly agree with Franco's suggestion to install a manometer gauge. They are not expensive and they easily show you what the draft strength is and how to reset the dampers quickly once you've found the "sweet spot" for how your stove heats best using the least amount of coal. What the mano saved me in coal, by being better able to adjust the dampers for best efficiency, paid for itself within two months. And that's just with a range that holds half the amount of coal your 116 can.

Without a mano it's like driving without a speedometer and guessing how fast your going. Luckily the RCMP doesn't give out speeding tickets for stoves each time you hear that roar ! :D
The least expensive mano is the one most of us use. Simple, accurate and very reliable. The best price I've seen in on Amazon.com here, https://www.amazon.com/dp/B009PAN3C8/ref=biss_dp_t_asn

Hope this helps explain why there are normally three damper systems used and why.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

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Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:32 pm

Thank you, I appreciate that, You have wonderful patience. I had been wondering about a few of those points.
Saturday tomorrow. I should feel ashamed; I wouldn't think of leaving the Tiger damper open but I only realized it after starting the Glenwood which meant the woodstove was gone. The manometer will be useful and interesting.
Noxram will have to wait, but spring should be right around the corner and then the stove pipe can get stored and lots of work can be done for both stoves. There was freezing rain when I cut roof for the Tiger chimney and it's solid but not work I'm proud of. Needs must when the devil drives. I need to work by a different adage.
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Tue Mar 21, 2017 12:05 pm

Maybe not important. I see various heights when I Google. Pipe damper 18 inches above elbow? Any preferable distance for a coal stove? The "warm" weather has provided me with sme natural damping but we are about to dip again.
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:23 pm

Wren wrote:Maybe not important. I see various heights when I Google. Pipe damper 18 inches above elbow? Any preferable distance for a coal stove? The "warm" weather has provided me with sme natural damping but we are about to dip again.


You just don't want the MPD close to a turn in the pipe that can cause turbulence issues. The rule of thumb I've heard is no closer than the diameter of the pipe. So a 6 inch pipe MPD should be at least 6 inches from any turns/bends in the pipe,..... and at least 8 inches away for an 8 inch pipe.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Hoytman On: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:32 pm

Since this thread is about MGO 116's maybe someone will be interested in this...

https://fortwayne.craigslist.org/atq/6052011383.html

...and I'll probably kick myself for not jumping on it, but I want a No. 6.
Hoytman
 
Other Heating: electric, wood, oil
Stove/Furnace Make: Solarwood wood stove
Stove/Furnace Model: Thermopride Oil Fired

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Thank you! It's in. I broke one and went to the other store found a stronger cast that turns smoothly. Also short of time used concrete cement to at least seal the edge of the liner and angle it rather than the flat edge that just collected ash. I'll do/ get things done properly over the summer.
Ohhhh. Ahhhhh. Did any one see the pretty bluish Glenwood in Stove Doctor's ward?
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:41 am

Don't forget to first open the MPD fully every time you open the loading door. After a fresh load of coal leave the MPD open until the snap, crackle, pop stops to help the fire recover sooner. Then when the fire is reestablished you can close it almost all the way.

If you don't like to stand at the stove and wait for the fresh batch of coal to get going, some people find that it helps to use a kitchen timer so you remember to reset the dampers. I use one of the small battery operated timers from Wal-Mart that has a spring-loaded clip on the back so that I can clip it onto my shirt.

Until you get the mano hooked up, only close the MPD until you just see the flames slow down their dance and get lazy. Don't want to close it too much and have exhaust back up into the house, but you do want it closed enough that it creates drag/resistance on the exhaust gas flow. That'll keep more heat in the house and help extend the time until the next refueling is needed.

Then, you set your heat level with the two primary dampers and use the MPD to help hold it there. It'll take some experimenting with different settings to find what your stove/chimney system like best. The mano will help show you what the draft is and help you find the sweet spot of best damper settings for best heat with least coal. Then the mano will help you quickly reset to that point every time you open the dampers to refuel.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:17 am

It was so windy last night I was glad the damper was in and as with the Tiger the coal lasts longer with the damper to hold some heat in/protect the coal from the elements. You have warned in another post about the ash door being dangerous open and even shut the chimney pulls so I am in good habit from the Tiger of opening everything while loading and staying around until the things get shut down or "reasonably" left open.
Nice to check once in the night and come down to warmth. Still too thot upstairs,
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

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Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:20 am

It was so windy last night I was glad the damper was in and as with the Tiger the coal lasts longer with the damper to hold some heat in/protect the coal from the elements. You have warned in another post about the ash door being dangerous open and even shut the chimney pulls so I am in good habit from the Tiger of opening everything while loading and staying around until the things get shut down or "reasonably" left open.
Nice to check once in the night and come down to warmth. Still too hot upstairs, but that can be remedied.
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:51 am

When you have the mano, for night time, you can cut back further on the primary's opening and fully close the MPD. That will help hold the stove at lower heat output,... and use less coal, too.

First one up in the morning can open the dampers up a bit to get the heat output back up for daytime.

When I come down in the morning, I open the MPD fully, bump the primary open about 1/8 and then feed the cat. By the time I've done that the fire is going strong and there is a "heat bank" of warmed up chimney to help get the stove refueled faster.

Then I add a layer of coal and let that catch as I make a cup of instant coffee. By the time that's ready, I give the grates a 1/3 turn and then shake ashes until I see an even glow throughout the ash pan. If it gets very bright orange in the pan, indicating not much ash on the grates, but it still has some darker areas, I use the right-angle tipped poker to poke up through the grates to clear those areas better.

Then I have a few sips of coffee. Then add another layer of coal and while that's getting going, I do a bit more ash shaking to see if more drops down. A few more sips of coffee and I look to see if the firebox needs any more coal to top it off. Total time to do all that is about 15 minutes from when I walk in the kitchen to stove is done, ready to start it's day of cooking/heating.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: CoalHeat On: Wed Mar 22, 2017 11:22 am

Sounds like you have the routine down pat!
CoalHeat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1959 EFM 350
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Magnafire Mark I
Baseburners & Antiques: Sears Signal Oak 15 & Andes Kitchen Range
Coal Size/Type: Rice and Chestnut
Other Heating: Fisher Fireplace Insert

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Wed Mar 22, 2017 6:37 pm

That sounds like a cosy routine. It will be fun to tell the teens first one up can open the damper, and all the instructions have been invaluable.

I am very pleased and like the security of not being dependent on thing that can fail for heat. When I was young there was an electricity cut(Quebec) and I remember my parents starting the fire and we were fine, and I thought that no house in Canada should be built without one. Prepared, I almost can't wait 'til next winter. :D
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Fri Mar 24, 2017 1:06 pm

Once the weather is above zero I can only run the Tiger. The room next to the Glenwood was eighty degrees at 9 p.m. and my son made me go up to his room to see the sweat on his face. Opened his window wide. Didn't help but cooler by 2 a.m.
Glenwood wasn't glowing or anything. I guess the wind dropped and it was up to 26 F. Let the Glenwood go out. The stove pipe in his room can be enclosed and I'll maybe open space around it in the attic to let the heat escape up out of the enclosed space. Maybe a little door he can open in case it ever actually gets cold in his room, but that only happens when the gas is on.
Even the light layer of cement made a difference to the glowing. I think there was a space behind the top edge of liner. I suppose I shouldn't ... I think I like the idea of firebrick. Maybe. Clay. I might ask my clever children to mould them to the correct angle as a project to earn allowance since I read a post about "snow slaves" Growing up. Ha. Can learn about more than coal heat on this Forum.
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Mar 24, 2017 2:38 pm

Sounds like a 116 is a little on the large size for your house ??? Not a bad thing because there are ways to temporarily match it to the house's needs, yet still have plenty of heat output for the really coldest days.. Worse is, as you know, to have too small a stove.

For warmer weather, you can try what some guys do - reducing the 116's output by placing a firebrick on end in the back of the firepot. As the coal burns down the brick should lower itself down into the firebed to reduce the amount of coal burning, but still maintain the firebed depth that helps it burn more efficiently. By displacing coal volume it will reduce the heat volume without reducing burn efficiency. When the weather turns colder just lift the brick out and add more coal to incease output. Kinda like making it into a variable size stove.

But, you need to find a firebrick that is wide enough to span the grate bars so that it shouldn't hang up the grate bars when it comes time to rotate and shake them.

And if you do reline the firepot, using a thicker liner (at least one inch thick like the originals) that will help better size the stove's heat output to the needs of your house. The thicker liner will not only reduce the coal volume and heat volume slightly, it will also retain more heat in the firebed to give better coal burning efficiency at smaller damper openings when you want to run it slower. Yet it can still crank out heat for the coldest days.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: Glenwood 116 to help out little Tiget

PostBy: Wren On: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:42 pm

I Don't quite understand the house/ weather. With the wood stove too above zero could be warm. I think it is the steep roof slope that keeps the heat in much better than the high square ceilings I left in Cobourg.
It is because of wanting to sleep at night and wake up warm that I love the Glenwood. And it's March. Most of the winter I think we will appreciate it. We had a few cold nights lately and it was a victorious fling to be warm in the morning.
I may try that brick idea, and it's a good thing you mention that the grates need to move. I think though that I have still something to learn about idling, and managing the stove better but again practice, practice.
I find the Tiger easy now, but I remember weeping with frustration losing the fire and needing to leave but now I manage it well. It took some time though, and still room for improvement.
Wren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Tiger 130, Glenwood 116
Coal Size/Type: Stove
Other Heating: Drolet woodstove, gas

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