Hall's 1991 DF 520 Build Thread

 
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Post by StokerDon » Sun. Aug. 06, 2017 9:07 pm

Pacowy wrote:SD, my concern with putting the flue outlet on the side would be that the path of flue gases moving over the heat exchange surfaces would change in a way that could cost you some efficiency. If the smoke pipe crossing the top of the boiler doesn't interfere with anything it might be best to leave the flue outlet on the back.

Mike
I admit I am not 100% sure how this would impact the boiler's efficiency, but I would bet it's minimal, if at all. We are not removing any of the boiler heat surface area, only the gas flow direction out of the bottom of the heat exchanger.

It was just something to think about. I don't like long stove pipe runs.

-Don


 
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Post by Pacowy » Mon. Aug. 07, 2017 10:26 am

Heat exchange depends upon both the area of heat exchange surfaces and the flow of flue gases over them. My concern is not that you would change the area, but the flow. EFM is known for having engineered carefully virtually every facet of their equipment designs and material selections, and I don't think it's by accident that the 520 (and many other boilers) were designed with a smoke pipe outlet centered in the rear, and no provision in the base, boiler head or installation manual for any other configuration. If the issue is that the chimney is on the "side" of the boiler, it's easy to rotate the boiler 90 deg and reverse the stoker and auger pipe positions if needed without cutting anything. With or without rotating, I would recommend following the installation manual, and avoiding unnecessary ad hoc changes whose effects are unknown.

Mike

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Sun. Aug. 20, 2017 6:36 pm

Thanks for the comments Gents

On the flue pipe issue...I see what Don is saying, I do not like long exhaust runs either, but in my case I don't believe I will gain anything by going out the side. Actually it may make things a little more cramped at that end of the boiler if the pipe were to come out the side. I'm not real sure about the efficiency debate but I would think leaving it as original would be best anytime it is possible.

I could have turned the boiler around 180 degrees and had a very short exhaust run, however every time I needed to pull an ash tub or open the fire door my arse would be up against the wall. I am not a very big boy but that was just something I was not interested in at all, hence my reasoning for turning it as it is. My first photo will show the chimney position as it relates to the boiler.

I have been able to get a few more things done, the plywood is now hung on the wall behind the boiler where my electrical controls and piping manifolds will be mounted. I need to hang a heat shield above the boiler where the exhaust run is routed because the floor joists will not meet the 18" that is the standard distance to combustibles... 187 year old house just generally did not have high enough basements for that jazz.

More to come.

Attachments

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Chimney inlet elbow in top left corner

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Starting to get the control boxes in place

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Post by Pacowy » Sun. Aug. 20, 2017 6:59 pm

CoalJockey wrote: I could have turned the boiler around 180 degrees and had a very short exhaust run, however every time I needed to pull an ash tub or open the fire door my arse would be up against the wall.
Did you consider turning the boiler 90 deg and reversing the stoker and auger pipe positions?

Mike

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Aug. 20, 2017 8:52 pm

I assume the bin is on the right of the boiler, so that is why you have it positioned that way. I would pull the boiler away from the plywood at least another foot, if not more. This will give you more clearance on the back for the smoke pipe, coil service, etc, and also reduce the pipe run to the chimney. That pipe run won't be too bad - a cleanout tee on the breech and two adjustable elbows will work just fine.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Mon. Aug. 21, 2017 4:49 am

You are 100% right on the coal bin location Rob, that answers Mike's question as well on turning the boiler 90 degrees. On this install there were two major items that seem to dictate the location of the boiler, first of which being the coal bin. I will be filling through an adjacent window, and it is the only access window on that side of the basement that is not bricked shut due to the porch or garage. However the window will not be in the bin... there will be a walkway between the window and the bin to gain access to the door that the ashes will go out through. I will try to get photos of that. I have a coal conveyor here for just about every application and I can cross this walkway with the conveyor and still pitch it in the bin.

The second big thing is the stairway that leads up to the first floor, there is a photo of it earlier in the thread. I wanted to leave as much room as possible between the boiler and the bottom of the steps, mainly for carrying large items like clothes baskets and such since the washer and dryer are in the basement. This also leaves enough room just in case someone would loose their balance and trip on the way down there is a little more floor between the bottom of the steps and the boiler. Mainly I just don't want anyone to get burned or hurt just from coming down or making the turn at the bottom of the stairs as the unit will likely not get a cabinet installed.

That photo makes it look like it is crammed against the wall but there is enough room there. I have the mandatory 18" between the exhaust stack and the plywood, and more than enough space to pull the coil out. If I come any further forward it will also throw the auger off center between two support poles and I run out of good smooth concrete in case I want to do a setup with bulk bags or something of that sort. I will keep the option of moving it forward a bit in consideration though as I do my electrical work.

After going through this surgery this past summer I would like to make it as easy as possible and build a hopper bin with a proper trap and pipe the auger straight in. I work my butt off putting coal into everyone else's house all Winter long... I would hate to do it on my own install if I can avoid it. I would have enough space to do a 3-5 ton bin which should get me 2/3rds of the way through the heating season.

I will ride that horse when I get there I guess.

 
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Post by Pacowy » Mon. Aug. 21, 2017 11:00 am

I agree with Rob on the positioning - manual calls for 30" on front, back and stoker side.

I'll wish you luck on your hope to save labor by having the auger in the bin. My first set-up allowed coal delivery directly into a slope-sided bin, with the coal fed to the (EFM 700) stoker via auger. I was disappointed not only by the small proportion of the coal that fed without "raking", but also by the difficulty of "piling" replacement coal over the auger. I wound up switching to a 2-bin system in which the storage bin was optimized for receiving large volumes, and the feed bin was more "tall and narrow". Even though all of the coal had to be moved between the two, it was easier in my situation. Richard covered some of these considerations here: Coal Bin Design for an EFM .

Mike


 
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Post by CoalJockey » Mon. Aug. 21, 2017 5:01 pm

I have been through the EFM manual quite a bit this summer when I was laid up, and again some more this afternoon. Mike, the only clearance specifications I can find in there point to having at least 30 inches around the boiler itself, which I do have on all sides and the 18 inches for the exhaust clearance. For clearances these are the only statements I can find:

"Maintain a minimum of 30 inches clearance on the front, rear and stoker side of the boiler to any obstructions or combustible material." -- Right hand side of page 3

"The flue pipe should be as short as possible, while maintaining the 30 inches of air space to the rest of the unit...Maintain 18 inches clearance, minimum, between the flue pipe and combustible material." -- Top Left of page 6

Now I am not saying I am right, I am just asking someone to show me if I am mis-reading this, missed something or am interpreting wrong. I am not worried about the diagram that shows 30" between the back of the boiler and the upright part of the stack that they want for coil removal; I can simply remove the stack.

I would love to allow more space but at the same time there is a fine line to everything fitting together in this basement as a whole. I also have floor joist support poles that cannot be removed and therefore must be worked around as well. Its hard to explain it out with photos but if you seen it as a whole in person it would make better sense.

Here are my clearances that I have now:

Attachments

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This is the stoker drive and fan side -- 36.5 inches

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IMG_1244.JPG

32 inches between rear of boiler and plywood

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IMG_1245.JPG

18.5 inches between plywood and upright stack

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Post by Rob R. » Mon. Aug. 21, 2017 5:49 pm

That will work.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Sun. Sep. 03, 2017 8:42 am

Time for an update. I am roughly 70% done with the electrical work on the boiler and on Tuesday the water piping will begin. There were a few major changes made since the last time I posted.

To begin with, Mike and Rob are gonna make me eat crow...but with a little bit of ketchup I think I can get it choked down. I put the whole thing on hold for a few days to think about my clearances and the suggestions that were made as I was sailing up and down the road. It is good that I did, for at some point in time it finally occurred to me that there may be an instance where I would not have 18 inches at the rear. I have a shower and the washer and dryer is in the basement so I need a fair amount of heat down there, but if the naked 520 heats the basement to more than my needs, then the insulation and cabinet will be installed. At this point a short piece of horizontal exhaust pipe would need to be installed where it comes out of the base in order to clear the extra few inches for the cabinet. Thus in this instance I would NOT have the required 18 inches.

So, per Mike and Robs recommendations, the decision was made to bring the boiler forward a full 12 inches. I had to lightly jack up the floor beams in order to move a post forward a foot also, the reason for this was to allow enough clearance for the ash door to open. Truthfully, I am actually pretty happy with the results as there is now more clearance at the rear and it does not seem that it pinched the opening to the stairway very much. So thank you for the suggestions guys...even if I did refute them to begin with.

Last weekend saw the installation of the heat shield above the boiler in order to satisfy the insurance requirements that called for a 24 gauge metal surface that was spaced 1 inch below the floor joists. My good friend Scott runs a barn painting and roof repair business and he had 6 leftover sheets of 3 foot by 6 foot Galvalum Megarib brand new, that is 26 guage, so we doubled them up and secured them on two 1 inch by 1inch square tube runners that I had hanging around here. This not only made a very nice looking job, but the heat shield itself is built heavy enough to park my tri-axle on it, enabling me to screw my electrical conduit and junction box for the outfire control, coal stoker motor, and oil gun.

Here are some photos of the current state and I will have more as I finish the electrical and the piping begins. The oiler is getting wired for Vermont Day's LOGO control and I am taking a step further by using a control without a screen but there will be a larger external screen and readout in the other box. More on that later.

Attachments

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New positioning 1 foot forward

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IMG_1272.JPG

Note the heat shield

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IMG_0001.JPG

Beginning the electrical work

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IMG_0003.JPG

Conduit to the top of the boiler, armored flex down to the outfire, stoker, and oil gun

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IMG_0007.JPG

Cleaning up the connections with buss bar, LOGO control in the center

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IMG_0008.JPG

Panel on the Left will be the boiler switch controls and the right panel houses the 24 volt transformer for thermostat panel. LOGO readout will be on this screen if it works correctly. Wireless thermostat panel underneath.

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Post by lsayre » Sun. Sep. 03, 2017 8:54 am

Nice! You do quality work!!!

 
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Post by Rob R. » Sun. Sep. 03, 2017 9:18 am

Outstanding.

One comment - after I installed the boiler in my brother's house I wished that I had painted the plywood that the controls are mounted on. You are not too far along to do this, so think about it before you continue on. A coat of gray paint on that would look very nice.

What is the red light for? (on the box over the boiler).

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Mon. Sep. 04, 2017 8:06 pm

IMG_0009.JPG

TaaaDaaaaaa!

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How dat look?

Thanks for the recommendation Rob, you and I think a lot alike. I had been thinking all along that I needed to paint it but was in a race to start the electrical with the temperatures dropping very early. I was not planning to get quite as much accomplished with the wiring as I did on Saturday, so I felt good enough about it today that I could take a few hours and smear some paint on.

I am well pleased with it. It is mostly gray but it does have a light pea-green tint to it, don't make fun. It was leftover high-quality Sherwin Williams from when we painted the dining room this Spring and I wanted to get it used up.

The red light over the boiler has an alarm built into it. I like to have a cut-out switch located around the stoker drive for quick, routine maintenance. The previous installation had the cut-out that I liked to use quite often, but then I developed a bad habit of walking off and forgetting to turn it back on. You know how that worked out. On this install anytime I flip this switch to shut the stoker off it will automatically activate the red light and alarm until I turn it back on, thus preventing my absent-minded chaos when the fire goes out.

Piping begins tomorrow.
Last edited by CoalJockey on Mon. Sep. 04, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

 
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Post by CoalJockey » Mon. Sep. 04, 2017 8:11 pm

Thanks for the compliment Larry

The whole thing is actually turning out a lot nicer than I had anticipated. I don't work very fast...I need lots of time to study and thoroughly think things through.

Sometimes I can study myself right into a daze. My wife says I have ADD...that's too bad I guess.

 
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Post by Rob R. » Mon. Sep. 04, 2017 8:13 pm

That looks first class! Nice job.

Are you planning to use the tankless coil?


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