Keystoker Challenges

keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:09 am

Hey All,
Been lurking since moving to NEPA and buying a home with two Keystoker stoves. The upstairs one fired up and has ran since, it has the pilot control on the exit pipe. The one downstairs has a timer and has not run well. I had it serviced and it ran for a day and went out. I read a lot here and replaced the T-stat. It ran a few days and went out. I have now tried about every setting, replaced the contractors, the timer motor, and finally the feed motor. I have sealed the tray ( the service guy left it unsealed) after I vacuumed a ton of dust out of it. Originally it would outrun the t-star and keep the room at 80 degrees. A small note that may be important it's a 6k sq ft house and this is the lowest basement with 20 ft chimney. It had pins all the way around on the timer as well. After replacing feed motor I tried just 7 pins every 10 minutes and it's gone out twice. I bought every coal mouse the local hardware store guy has. He probably thinks I am a terrorist. The chimney is along two others, one for the upstairs fireplace and one for an outdoor grill. They are all the same height and all were cleaned when we moved in. Sometimes, before I replaced to components it would run for 3-4 days and then go out. After with the reseal it really has a nice flame. I spoke to Keystoker a few times and he is out of ideas. We both thought it must be the feeder since it runs a few days. The last two ideas are the temp sensor which I get curious responses on. It must have one since the fan settings run off internal temps ( I have adjusted as well with no luck) The other is the chimney, I don't have a gauge but did the match test and adjusted combustion fan until it pulled the match in. I am wondering if the huge length of chimney really needs a fan to push the smoke up. I am in Jim Thorpe and getting service here for anything seems impossible. I had to have a service on the heat pump for the back up electric$$$ and it took almost 3 months and two or three visits. I am at the point I want to rip them all out and run an outdoor coal boiler. Even running the upstairs stove wide open the electric still kicks on because of the house layout, size. I also have 4 kids and work 90 hours a week so spending my tiny bit of free time on this stove is killing me. I love how easy the upstairs stove is but the basement one is getting frustrating and about to meet a cutting torch....
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

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Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:11 am

A disclaimer I have no idea if the stove ever ran well. The previous owner was good at bubba work and it's possible he installed it used but it looks like it's been awhile so ??
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: lzaharis On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:27 am

When was the ash pit in stoker chimneys cleaned out?
Are any of these chimneys blessed with chimney caps?

Investing in a Dwyer Mark II manomoter and the Pitot tube for
the stove would be something I would do first.

You can purchase them directly from Dwyer Instruments and
have them shipped the same day.
Last edited by lzaharis on Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
lzaharis
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Keystoker KAA-4-1 dual fuel boiler
Coal Size/Type: rice
Other Heating: kerosene for dual fuel Keystoker

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:30 am

:idea: Need that guage, either a manometer or a magnehelic to understand what is going on.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:04 pm

The internal chimney deal that goes above the fire and back down? I cleaned it when I resealed. Surprised the service guy that cleaned and lit it didn't. I will get the gauge and look into the other thing. All three chimneys have caps that are the same height. I couldn't figure out how the basement smelled like smoke from upstairs fireplace. I was worried about a leak between the two liners but the cleaner said it was them both being the same height and capped.
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:06 pm

It's not a boiler it's a direct vent I think they call it. It has a undampered chimney and vents heat directly into the room.
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: WNY On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:17 pm

A direct vent has a blower on the exhaust. is yours a Natural draft chimney? with the stove pipe hooked directly to the stove?
If no direct vent exhaust blower, does it have barometric damper somewhere in line.

Something is not keeping it going at idel, have you checked the pusher stoker cam and sliders on the pusher block, if it melted or warped it wont' maintain a idle fire.
if previous owner didnt' have draft set correctly, it can burn back the grate and slightly into the feeder and/or hopper and melt the nylon cam. I see you said you replaced the feed motor.

what's your feed rate screw at? should be CW in, and back out about 3-4 turns to start.

PIns on the IDLE box should be around 4-5 every 10 mins, each pin is about 15 secs.

like mcgyver said, get a draft gauge and see what things are set at and adjust accordingly.

Temp sensor? should just have the one on the Convection Blower mounted on the side, but shouldnt' affect the idle burn at all. that just turn on the room blower to move the heat from the stove.

post a pic or two of your setup. I've had mine for about 15 years, never had a problem with it not idling or anything.
WNY
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 90K, Leisure Line Hyfire I
Coal Size/Type: Rice
Stove/Furnace Make: Keystoker, LL & CoalTrol
Stove/Furnace Model: 90K, Hyfire I, VF3000 Soon

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:44 pm

Sorry yeah it blows in the room so I thought that was direct vent. It's a natural chimney. I have tried the factory screw setting up to 1 turn in just to see if it would hold. I have tried adjusting one thing at a time but have attempted at least a dozen relights. It is a natural chimney just like thevupstairs setup. I will post pics when I get time. Thanks for the help.
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Visit Leisure Line

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 10:45 pm

I thought there was some emergency overheat on that sensor but maybe not.
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: McGiever On: Sun Feb 19, 2017 11:31 pm

Gremcat wrote:I thought there was some emergency overheat on that sensor but maybe not.


Yes, there is a high limit:
From the Manual...

CONVECTION BLOWER NOT BLOWING MUCH AIR Clean screen and fan blades
on blower.

GEAR MOTOR SHUTS OFF ON HI-LIMIT

High Limit pointer in Fan Limit Switch is designated to shut gear motor off when
internal air temperature reaches 200 degrees. If internal air temperature stays on 200
degrees, Convection Blower is not cooling stove off quickly enough. Clean screen and
fan blades on blower or replace convection blower (or See Page 9, Fan Limit Control)
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: blrman07 On: Mon Feb 20, 2017 7:31 am

Gremcat wrote:The internal chimney deal that goes above the fire and back down? I cleaned it when I resealed. Surprised the service guy that cleaned and lit it didn't. I will get the gauge and look into the other thing. All three chimneys have caps that are the same height. I couldn't figure out how the basement smelled like smoke from upstairs fireplace. I was worried about a leak between the two liners but the cleaner said it was them both being the same height and capped.


He is probably right. If your getting a smoke smell in the basement area when only using the upstairs fireplace, the chimney for the basement stove is down drafting the smoke/fumes from the upstairs fireplace. Your units require a certain amount of makeup air and If you don't provide it, it will pull it from anywhere it can. That is usually the largest opening which is that second flue.

You can try removing the chimney caps and put an extension on the upstairs flue pipe. You can do something as simple as setting a section of clay pipe over the existing upper floor flue. This will allow the smoke generated to exhaust higher than the basement flue which will hopefully stop the basement chimney from pulling the smoke down. However that doesn't solve the problem of that second flue pulling a downdraft to satisfy the makeup air needs of the house when burning the upstairs unit.

Easiest and probably the most effective is open a window near the upstairs unit or in the basment area. Your house is gonna get makeup air from somewhere and pulling it down a chimney is not the most desirable way to do that. If opening a window solves the problem then you can start a project of supplying outside air vent for the upstairs and downstairs units.

Congratulations for buying a "tight" house to save on heating costs.
Remember the old saying "no good deed goes unpunished." :mad:
blrman07
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Bucket a Day
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant Casting 2310
Coal Size/Type: Pea/Nut/Wood in the VC and anything that will fit in the Bucket a Day. It's not fussy.

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: Gremcat On: Sun Mar 26, 2017 4:33 pm

I looked at the chimney and it's the same height but the top vent /cover are a few feet apart. I relit it and adjusted it so I had a match pull into the lower door as per the old manual. I also reinstalled all the timer pins which means 11 pins every ten minutes. The instructions said to close the conbustion fan until it pulled the flame in. At 90% closed it barely pulled it in. I am betting that's why whoever ran it before had all the pins in. I turned on the 4 ceiling fans in that side of the basement ( it's s huge room) and opened the door to the rental side of the basement and it stayed lit for 3 days. I asked my Wife to dump the ash one day and that night she reported it was out. I have been working 6-7 days a week and I suspect she let the ash back up. The only other change in that room was a Radon System. Even with two Radon fans and 5 ports the main room is too high. The rental is 1.5 but the main room is in the 8s. I am going to install an air exchanger which should bring make-up air in for the furnace too. I am also thinking it would help if I used a electric fan to vent up the chimney. It's probably 3.5 - 4 stories from furnace to chimney cap. I have been unable to find a good HVAC service or Radon service or I would have a dehumidifier tied to an air exchanger and maybe put forced air down there like we have upstairs. The services I have tried either never showed or took 4 months with 5 or more visits and never solved the issues. I love the area but I am working and traveling a lot and getting anyone out here for any type of Contract work is impossible. I have done full Remodels but have no time and HVAC on a complicated 6k sq ft house is not something I want to tackle in my limited free time. If the upstairs furnace wasn't so great I would tear it all out and go forced air. I am currently running 1 coal stove, 2 heat pumps, and baseboards for the basement in lieu of the second coal furnace. My utilities are astronomical.
Gremcat
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Keystoker 105
Coal Size/Type: Anthracite Rice

Re: keystoker challenges

PostBy: oliver power On: Sun Mar 26, 2017 11:00 pm

I probably have 33 pins that come with my KEYSTOKER Kaa-2 boiler. I use 3 groups of 4 pins.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II), D.S. 1600 Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)

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