Draft inducer and mounting it

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: McGiever On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:43 am

This flap may just not contribute directly to the CO leak, but rather the CO escapes at the grate level of the idle fire.
For those unfamiliar, we're talking less than 1/2" gap between flap and port here.

It still seems a rare problem but does point to a restrictive stovepipe/flue/chimney. (i.e. longer stovepipe routing and/or a excessive number of bends or turns)

:idea: Maybe a crazy thought...but an increased stovepipe diameter with or without a modified stovepipe cap may be a better long term solution. :?: :?: :?:

This may be the first AA that I have heard of needing a 'inducer' for the induced draft. And still remember, unlike most stove/boiler, a always necessary open crack/flap when at idle. :)
Last edited by McGiever on Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek


Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:58 am

Rob R. wrote:
Rick, with all the bragging the AA guys have done over the years about these things needing little to no draft, I wonder if there is something else going on here. The first thing I would do is see if the draft is actually going to zero when the boiler sits idle. If it does not, I think you either have a problem with the "pope hat" gasket, or insufficient make-up air to the boiler room.



Rob,

First off, I replaced the pope's hat and resealed it well when doing the rehab/replumbing of the AA.

There has always been a very low draft on this chimney. The chimney is on the north side of the house. It is an exterior tile lined chimney. It is attached to the exterior wall on the front of the house, and where it extends through the front porch roof, it stands alone approximately 10' to the height of the main roof. At idle I am very close to .01 on the draft at times. I believe that reworking the plumbing has made it more efficient thereby shrinking the run times of the boiler. Since the boiler fires less, the chimney has a greater chance of cooling down. Add in the changing up and down temps lately and it just adds to the situation. Plus we are surrounded by farm fields and the wind blows unfettered on the chimney.

Now add in the fact that after my mother in law died, the sister in law moved in to that side of this twin farmhouse. It is her cat that is in the basement. And she is very paranoid when dealing with low levels of CO present. For the 25 + years that me and my wife have lived on our side, we have had no problem with cracking open a window and putting a fan in the basement when the levels of CO rose. The mother in law was never concerned while she was alive. The sister in law on the other hand is ready to call the fire company and have them ventilate the house !!!!!! She thinks she knows what she is doing but honestly doesn't have a clue. While I was in Maine, the SIL suggested to the wife that they have someone come to the house to check out the AA 260 suggesting that I did something wrong on the rehab of it. That's when the wife asked her who SHE THINKS they should call ??? Who SHE THINKS is qualified to work on a 1959 coal heater ??? Who SHE THINKS would even know how to service a coal boiler ???

So in order to avoid having to deal with the low draft issue, the questioning of my ability to maintain the boiler, the occasional use of window ventilation, I will just install the draft inducer. I plan on setting it to maintain -.02 to -.03 at idle. When firing, the AA gets the draft to -.05 or higher depending on the firing time.




Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:01 am

Rob R. wrote:I mentioned the pope hat because a few years ago someone had an issue with it and the boiler would emit CO whenever the fan started up

Yes, that big blower will find any hole and blow through it. My point was that a failure at the hat or anywhere before it should have no impact on the chimney's draft. None.

That said, I personally would avoid the powered inducer. It is exspensive, it will cost money to operate and require maintenance and repair and reduce the boilers efficiency. The chimney has a problem and I would find out what that is and correct it. Sucking a lot of air through a sleeping Axeman seems to me to be a waste of energy and that means money.

Can we get some details on the house and chimney? How many flues, height, distance to obstructions and its location relative to the rest of the home?
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:25 am

Rick, do you run a timer as suggested by AA?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:53 am

Rob,

We have never used a timer. Tried about 10 years ago but it probably was not wired properly. And actually we run this unit 24/7/365 without any real issues. During the summer months, we always had the basement windows open due to the radiant heat coming off the boiler itself.

As soon as the weather does break, I'll have the chimney sweep come by and inspect the flue. But as I said, when firing, it is not uncommon to see draft above -.05. It is just during the longer idle times that we are seeing occasional CO readings.


CS, the AA 260 is in the basement of a large 2 story twin farmhouse. Chimney extends by itself as a stack coming up the front of the house through the porch roof. There is a large walnut tree on the west side of the house about 40' away from the stack. It is a single flue and is probably a good 35' tall from ground level. It is a tile lined chimney. Not sure if there is brick over the tile but think it might be. Then there is stucco on the exterior. The original farmhouse probably goes back into the late 1800's to early 1900's. Original walls are logs with mortise and tenon joints around the windows. There was hand split lath and horsehair plaster interior walls.



Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 11:31 am

What size is the flue? I'm just guessing, but it must be huge. Does the chimney go above the peak? Is the roof within 10' above the chimney top? 35' of chimney should draft very well, you are probably over 40' from the appliance. Something isn't Kosher.

Are there any fireplaces connected to this chimney?
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rob R. On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:08 pm

A chimney cleaning is not a bad idea, but from what you have described that doesn't sound like the problem. Check to make sure the cleanout door is closed tightly.

I would try running a timer with the settings AA recommends. It will keep the fire, boiler, and chimney warmer.
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:20 pm

coaledsweat wrote:What size is the flue? I'm just guessing, but it must be huge. Does the chimney go above the peak? Is the roof within 10' above the chimney top? 35' of chimney should draft very well, you are probably over 40' from the appliance. Something isn't Kosher.

Are there any fireplaces connected to this chimney?


Not sure of the size of the chimney flue. Never got to the top of it to check. Since it goes through the semi flat porch roof, it would require hauling at least a 12' step ladder up onto the porch roof to gain access to the top of the chimney But I'm guessing 8x8 tiles. At 1 time my father in law did have a SS liner installed but after that failed, it was removed entirely. Chimney is close to the peak. But it is at least 10' away from the peak of the roof. If I get the chance, I'll take a pic tonight.

There is nothing else in this single flue.

and Rob, there is no cleanout door. It was plastered over many moons ago.

I know the thing should draft like crazy but it does not.




Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work


Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: titleist1 On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:08 pm

Rick 386 wrote:At 1 time my father in law did have a SS liner installed but after that failed, it was removed entirely. .............

I know the thing should draft like crazy but it does not.


Just wondering if it has been checked for any obstructions that should have been removed but wasn't??

From the discussion your wife and the sister in law had I wouldn't have been able to help myself and would have suggested the sister in law move in the basement with the CO and move the cat upstairs!! :devil:
titleist1
 
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: Harman Mag Stoker (old style) one in basement, one in workshop
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Harman Mark III on standby for long power outages
Coal Size/Type: Rice/Anthracite; Nut/Anthracite

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Mon Mar 06, 2017 3:21 pm

titleist1 wrote:Just wondering if it has been checked for any obstructions that should have been removed but wasn't??

From the discussion your wife and the sister in law had I wouldn't have been able to help myself and would have suggested the sister in law move in the basement with the CO and move the cat upstairs!! :devil:


I have found basketballs and racoon nests in old chimneys, it is worth a look.

You're a solutions oriented guy I see! :lol:
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:39 pm

Since we are finally back online and up and running, and since Rob asked me what's happening, here goes..................

I returned the first inducer and replaced it with the AD-1model since it already has the rheostat attached to regulate the fan speed.

Got everything installed and running I think on Tuesday night right before the NEPA blackout. Having the rheostat turned down as low as possible gives me a reading of -.04 to -.05 at idle on the manometer. A little too much draft if you ask me, but too much would only lead to heat up the chimney correct ?? But I would like to dial the inducer back a little bit more. Going to have to get another rheostat that slows it down some more. I'm happy and so is everyone else or so I think......

Wednesday night the sister in law states that sometime in the night when the wind started howling, she smells sulphur in her upstairs bedroom. She checks her CO monitor and it is reading rather high. She opens windows all over the house. Only issue is that she doesn't realize that the garage stack for the Hyfire II out there is just about even with her bedroom windows. And that depending on wind direction may be blowing right to her windows. :doh:
I find this out after I'm at work. So I head home to check everything out while they are all at work. Find that the CO detector that she was looking at was on the carpeted floor and is 11 years old !!!! She goes out and buys a new one. Actually 2 new detectors. Installs them and starts getting readings of CO in the house. The one detector must be bad and reading incorrectly. Our detector does not record any when we took it over to her side of the house.

Although it might be possible that the inducer is over pressuring the chimney and if there are any cracks, it may be pushing it into her house. So to make sure that there is nothing wrong with the chimney, I have scheduled a cleaning and inspection for Monday morning.

When I installed the flue pipe, I never added the extra piece to the "T" that Axeman suggests, so last night, I taped a piece of extra flue pipe in there. I didn't have any rivets to make it permanent. I will do that later when it warms up. And since we once again have wind and lower temps, I shut off the inducer. I was still maintaining -.02 at idle last night. I'll keep an eye on it throughout the weekend. And I just bought a new KIDDE Nighthawk KN-Copp-3 for our side. I also bought a handheld CO Detector which should be delivered Tuesday.



Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: coaledsweat On: Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:54 pm

-0.04-0.05 is very high for an at idle Axeman, I would dial it back to -0.02 or so and see how things are. Yes, it is sucking heat up the chimney.
coaledsweat
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: Axeman Anderson 260M
Coal Size/Type: Pea

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: McGiever On: Sat Mar 11, 2017 5:36 pm

Another member did some mods to a AD-1 here:

Tjernlund AD-1 Draft Adjustments
McGiever
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AXEMAN-ANDERSON 130 "1959"
Coal Size/Type: PEA / ANTHRACITE
Other Heating: Ground Source Heat Pump
Stove/Furnace Make: Hydro Heat /Mega Tek

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rob R. On: Sat Mar 11, 2017 6:22 pm

Rick, can you post a picture of the flue pipe arrangement?

I never saw if you said anything about a baro, but if you have one, the draft inducer needs to be between the baro and chimney.

Also, what do you have for make-up air in the basement?
Rob R.
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: EFM DF520
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93
Coal Size/Type: Lehigh Rice
Other Heating: Dad's 1953 EFM Highboy

Re: Draft inducer and mounting it

PostBy: Rick 386 On: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:03 pm

Rob R. wrote:Rick, can you post a picture of the flue pipe arrangement?

I never saw if you said anything about a baro, but if you have one, the draft inducer needs to be between the baro and chimney.

Also, what do you have for make-up air in the basement?



Ask and ye shall receive:
Inducer 1.jpg
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Current pipe configuration with inducer installed
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Inducer 2.jpg
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Manometer after boiler run
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Inducer 3.jpg
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AA Modification to the "T"
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As for additional info, the inducer is approximately 24" from the chimney connection while the center of the baro is 42" from the chimney and the overall length from the wall to the AA is 12'.




Rick
Rick 386
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: AA 260 heating both sides of twin farmhouse
Hot Air Coal Stoker Stove: LL Hyfire II w/ coaltrol in garage
Coal Size/Type: Pea in AA 260, Rice in LL Hyfire II
Other Heating: Gas fired infared at work