First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: jrouse84 On: Sun Mar 12, 2017 11:19 pm

One more question. What is an over fire air hole that you mentioned closing off and only leaving 3 open? I see holes in the front just behind the door but I believe that is supposed to keep the glass clean (however not doing a very good job).
jrouse84
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: D.S. Circluator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

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Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: oliver power On: Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:11 am

jrouse84 wrote:One more question. What is an over fire air hole that you mentioned closing off and only leaving 3 open? I see holes in the front just behind the door but I believe that is supposed to keep the glass clean (however not doing a very good job).
Those are the over fire air holes I'm talking about. They are also known as secondary air holes. They put them in front of the glass, and call it an air wash. In theory, the air wash keeps the glass cleaner, longer. And cooler as well. You see how that works. They do work well for diluting gasses, carrying them up the chimney. Diluted gasses ignite softly, without a big explosion. Once ignited, the secondary holes provide oxygen to burn the gasses, making the stove even more efficient.

Now, you can play with those holes to strengthen, or weaken the draft up through the coal bed. The more holes you plug, the stronger the draft through the coal bed. The more holes you open, the weaker the draft through the coal bed, as more air is being pulled over the coal bed. If you were to plug all the holes, and back flapper closes as well, then you'd have no air traveling through the stove for diluting / igniting gasses. This would lead to a BIG explosion, as gasses will build. That's why I say to leave 3 open. The newer D.S. Circulator stove has adjustable over fire air. It is called the "Anthramax". I looked at the new ANTHRAMAX. I like the Circulator models better.

Back to this hopper deal. My D.S. 1600 performs much better with the hopper removed. If the hopper hindered my 1600, it surly must hinder your little 1300. All the hoppers are the same exact size for all 4 circulator models. It's a "One size fits all" situation. If removing the hopper from the biggest, and smallest of the circulator models has positive results, it should be positive for the 1400, & 1500 as well. So, I'm really interested in your results. I should have said, we're ALL interested in results.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II), D.S. 1600 Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: jrouse84 On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:38 am

UPDATE

So as promised on my off days I said i was going to test by taking out the hopper, moving the fan, and using the toilet paper suggestion in the doorways to test draft. I removed the hopper about 30 minutes ago. Filled the firebox. Fan has been moved to opposite end of the house blowing towards the room with the stove. Toilet paper taped to all the doorways. The draft is working as it should as the TP is sucking inward on EVERY room in the house. I was a little skeptical about that one...lol. But indeed is working. Stove is warming up as i was quite cold this morning. It is 25 degrees outside. I am sitting in the stove room which is where the computer is, on the opposite side of that room of course. Quite warm back here, but the fan is not sitting beside me now either as it was right here attached to the ceiling. I will update later in the day and let everyone know how the warmth of the house feels compared to the previous way. I can tell however that the stove is warmer along with the area directly around it with the hopper removed. I have not plugged any of the over fire holes yet. I might try that later once i have something of a base line to compare before and after to.
jrouse84
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: D.S. Circluator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: warminmn On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:47 am

You wont know until you try.

The fan thing, I know it doesnt make sense at first as it seems like you should blow hot air away from the stove instead of cooler air into the room... took me many years of fighting heat movement until I started reading this forum.... but if you get that part figured out it will make a world of difference in your comfort. A ceiling fan in the heat room may help move warmer air too but it all depends. You just have to try a few things until you have success. Air movement is a biggie.
warminmn
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Chubby Junior, Efel Nestor Martin, Frankenstove
Coal Size/Type: nut and stove anthracite. Soft coal
Other Heating: wood

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: BigBarney On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:02 am

The fan works because you are creating a system similar to a furnace where you move

the cold air to the expanding heated air and the hot air is pushed over the denser cold air.

As you push the cold air to the heat from the stove you cause this air to expand and push

outward creating the air current to move the heat.


BigBarney
BigBarney
 

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: jrouse84 On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:36 am

Out of curiosity... is it possible to mix a small amount of rice coal with this nut coal and it work in my stove ok? The local TSC has about 110 bags of nut the he will sell me for half price just to get it gone for the season and about 30 bags of rice for 1.99 each. I thought about picking up the rice and just mixing in a little here and there. Maybe a 20% ratio or something. $3 for the nut. Im about to leave and grab the nut and was curious if i should grab the rice also.
jrouse84
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: D.S. Circluator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: windyhill4.2 On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:42 am

jrouse84 wrote:Out of curiosity... is it possible to mix a small amount of rice coal with this nut coal and it work in my stove ok? The local TSC has about 110 bags of nut the he will sell me for half price just to get it gone for the season and about 30 bags of rice for 1.99 each. I thought about picking up the rice and just mixing in a little here and there. Maybe a 20% ratio or something. $3 for the nut. Im about to leave and grab the nut and was curious if i should grab the rice also.


I would consider that option a total pain... BUT,maybe you want to try for yourself, the saying is that "you will never know without trying it yourself."
Another..." Experience is the best teacher" :)

I just can't see how it would pay to buy fines to add to your stove as rice would be like fines to a stove designed for nut.
windyhill4.2
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: 1960 EFM520 installed in truck box
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404 with variable blower
Coal Size/Type: 404-nut, 520 rice ,anthracite for both

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:48 am

jrouse84 wrote:UPDATE

So as promised on my off days I said i was going to test by taking out the hopper, moving the fan, and using the toilet paper suggestion in the doorways to test draft. I removed the hopper about 30 minutes ago. Filled the firebox. Fan has been moved to opposite end of the house blowing towards the room with the stove. Toilet paper taped to all the doorways. The draft is working as it should as the TP is sucking inward on EVERY room in the house. I was a little skeptical about that one...lol. But indeed is working. Stove is warming up as i was quite cold this morning. It is 25 degrees outside. I am sitting in the stove room which is where the computer is, on the opposite side of that room of course. Quite warm back here, but the fan is not sitting beside me now either as it was right here attached to the ceiling. I will update later in the day and let everyone know how the warmth of the house feels compared to the previous way. I can tell however that the stove is warmer along with the area directly around it with the hopper removed. I have not plugged any of the over fire holes yet. I might try that later once i have something of a base line to compare before and after to.
You're started in the right direction. How about the draft setting? Did you adjust to -.04? You can set manual damper at -.04. However, I found the D.S. likes the barometric damper, ........and so will you. No opening, and closing the manual damper. Automatically compensates to weather changes. Like I said before; install it, and forget about it.

Nothing wrong with leaving ALL the over fire air holes open. However, I found the more holes plugged, the stronger the draft coming up through the coal bed. Your fire box is a lot smaller than my 1600 fire box. You may want less holes plugged. Right now, I'm running with 2 holes open. Quite often I'll run with 3 holes open.

Another trick I've learned with the up & down temps we've been having this year. When the temps are up, and you don't want excess heat, open more over fire air hole. This will weaken the draft through the fire bed. The fire will continue to burn, but at a slower rate. You'll actually burn less coal.

Never plug all the over fire air holes. The D.S. has no other continuous air flowing through the stove for dilution of gasses. At tending time, empty ashes from previous shaking, shake grates, brighten up the fire, and fill to top of firebrick......mounding up in center. Close ALL doors. and let it be. It'll be fine. What ever you do, don't open any stove doors. Just let it be. Once the gasses ignite, you'll see / hear a soft gentle puff. Most of the time, you won't hear anything. You'll just notice flames. And of course, once gasses are ignited, the air coming through the over fire air holes will aid in burning the gasses.

Again,
1.) with hopper removed, you'll get better, steadier heat from the D.S., without the mood swings.
2.) -.04 draft will keep the heat in the stove, and not let it go up the chimney.
3.) adjust over fire air holes for draft through coal bed.

So far, you're looking good. Can't hardly wait to hear your findings / opinions. Don't forget to give us the difference between stove temp, and pipe temp. I seem to average a 300* difference once stove settles in. Hope yours are as good as mine.

EDIT: I agree with others on NOT mixing the rice coal in with the nut. Buy it, and re-sell it is a good suggestion. I have run my HITZER 30-95 on buck, when in a pinch. I'd steal a little buck from the house coal. Rice is smaller yet. Don't do it....
Last edited by oliver power on Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II), D.S. 1600 Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)

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Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: michaelanthony On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:50 am

jrouse84 wrote:Out of curiosity... is it possible to mix a small amount of rice coal with this nut coal and it work in my stove ok? The local TSC has about 110 bags of nut the he will sell me for half price just to get it gone for the season and about 30 bags of rice for 1.99 each. I thought about picking up the rice and just mixing in a little here and there. Maybe a 20% ratio or something. $3 for the nut. Im about to leave and grab the nut and was curious if i should grab the rice also.


I'm not sure about mixing rice with nut :blowup: ...the reason by blocking the air movement around the pieces of 'nut coal you could bee setting yourself up for a big boom. the gases created by the fresh coal would be building up in the coal bed and not rising to mix with the over fire air as it does with 'nut size. A member had a bad experience mixing pea and 'nut: Puffback blew pipe off of chimney and stove

My only big BOOM came when I loaded a box stove designed to burn 'nut with pea and tended the stove as usual, when I opened the door to check the fire the rush of oxygen ignited and scared...let's just say I changed my shorts!

By the rice for $1.99/bag and sell it at a profit if you can't resist the sale ;)

Mike
michaelanthony
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Vigilant 2310, gold marc box stove, vogelzang pot belly coat rack
Baseburners & Antiques: Home Sparkle 12
Coal Size/Type: Coal Contractor's stove, a little Kimmels 'nut
Other Heating: Very cold FHA oil furnace

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:56 am

There's a few things happening with fan placement.

Air is lazy, it doesn't like to move unless acted on by a force.

Gravity is one of those forces, but rather weak compared to a fan. Gravity just makes the cooler, heavier air want to settle to the lowest points and being lazy the air wants to stay there.

The fan does a better job of moving denser air than thinner air.

Having the fan high and near the stove just moving hot air, that hot air tends to move around over the colder air layer and "float' on top of that layer. It will only start to drop and mix after it cools off. So you get a bit more stratification of air temps. And some of that hot floating air will move around the sides to replace air forced by the fan, rather than move as much cold air to the stove to replace that hot air moved by the fan. You need to run the fan harder to cause enough air movement to move the cold air below.

By having the fan force-move the colder air toward the stove the hot air has to replace that cold air sooner because the cold air layer is being lowered near the fan. And it does so before that hot air has as much chance to cool off. So you get better mixing of hot and cold air making the room temps less stratified and more uniform. And the fan doesn't have to be running as hard to do that.

Paul
Sunny Boy
 
Hand Fed Coal Boiler: Anthracite Industrial, domestic hot water heater
Baseburners & Antiques: Glenwood range 208, # 6 base heater, 2 Modern Oak 118.
Coal Size/Type: Nuts !
Other Heating: Oil &electric plenum furnace

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:45 pm

jrouse84 wrote:UPDATE

So as promised on my off days I said i was going to test by taking out the hopper, moving the fan, and using the toilet paper suggestion in the doorways to test draft. I removed the hopper about 30 minutes ago. Filled the firebox. Fan has been moved to opposite end of the house blowing towards the room with the stove. Toilet paper taped to all the doorways. The draft is working as it should as the TP is sucking inward on EVERY room in the house. I was a little skeptical about that one...lol. But indeed is working. Stove is warming up as i was quite cold this morning. It is 25 degrees outside. I am sitting in the stove room which is where the computer is, on the opposite side of that room of course. Quite warm back here, but the fan is not sitting beside me now either as it was right here attached to the ceiling. I will update later in the day and let everyone know how the warmth of the house feels compared to the previous way. I can tell however that the stove is warmer along with the area directly around it with the hopper removed. I have not plugged any of the over fire holes yet. I might try that later once i have something of a base line to compare before and after to.


As rude and crude as it sounds the TP works very well to show what is happening rather than guess. Around here they are on sails and referred to as tell tales. They do the same thing to show if sail is trimmed correct and heading into the wind a sensible one. I have gotten more than a few stares at them wondering what they do or if I have finally lost it.. LOL
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: jrouse84 On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 2:13 pm

Not sure what a great coal fire looks like, but here it is midway through the day now. Stove temp running somewhere around 450-475 I assume. My temp gauge stops at 450. The top edge of the stove shows 425 and the center just peaks the scale for the meter to read. 18" above the stove on the pipe is 239 degrees. Right as the pipe exits in the flu is 160 degrees. MPD is mostly shut. Radiant heat around the stove is much better than previous. Will update again this evening to see how much coal I have to add.
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jrouse84
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: D.S. Circluator
Coal Size/Type: Nut

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: oliver power On: Thu Mar 16, 2017 6:27 pm

Not a bad looking fire. A little on the hot side near the front, but not too bad. In that situation, pull some of the coals towards the front. OR, at tending time, add a little more to the front to try an even out the coal bed. Don't bank front to back. Just to give you an idea, I dump my coal directly in the middle, letting it mound as high as it wants, without the edges going above the fire brick.

Looks like you can close your manual damper all the way. Still more heat going up the chimney than necessary. So, close your damper all the way, and turn down the back dial more. No need to run HOT, unless we're in a deep freeze, and you NEED the heat.

425 - 475 isn't bad. However, I can tell by the bright orange coals towards the front, she's getting up there in temp. If you were to lessen the heat loss up the chimney a little more, you can turn down the primary air a little more, and still have 425 - 475 without the bright, bright, orange coals.

You may want to plug some of your holes as mentioned. Reason being; excess air coming through your over fire air holes will carry heat up the chimney. I'd close up all but 2 or 3 holes. Then when the back flapper opens, you'd have more draft for kicking up the fire. You'll have to find that balance.

When my stove is running 425, my stack temp is 125. I run a 300* difference between stove body, and stack. I'm extremely happy with those numbers.

When looking at your bottom picture, the center front of the coal bed is a nice "steady run" glow. The two front corners are a little on the hot side. You're looking for the whole coal bed to be running like the front center.

I just took this picture for you. I believe the stove temp was 425. Should have wrote it down. Getting tired. Notice only 2 holes open? The rest are plugged. Also, notice the "X" around other bolts? That is air coming around the bolt heads. So there ya go. The plugged holes don't have to be air tight.
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oliver power
 
Stoker Coal Boiler: KEYSTOKER Kaa-2
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Hitzer 50-93 & 30-95, Vigilant (pre-Vigilant-II), D.S. 1600 Circulator
Baseburners & Antiques: MANY (Mostly when burning wood)

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: davidmcbeth3 On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:20 am

jrouse84 wrote:...

Yes i have co2 detectors.


Not CO2 detectors ... CO.

CO2 is almost an inert gas ...

CO will kill ya.
davidmcbeth3
 
Coal Size/Type: nut/pea/anthra
Stove/Furnace Make: Hitzer
Stove/Furnace Model: 503

Re: First year coal user. Question about maximum heat possibili

PostBy: ddahlgren On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:05 am

davidmcbeth3 wrote:
jrouse84 wrote:...

Yes i have co2 detectors.


Not CO2 detectors ... CO.

CO2 is almost an inert gas ...

CO will kill ya.


CO2 will as well about 8% and you are dead, half that useless confused.
ddahlgren
 
Hand Fed Coal Stove: Crane 404

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