Whoops NO WIRETAPS

Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: davidmcbeth3 On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:17 pm

I think I found a wiretap on my coffee-maker.

Those bastages !
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:58 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:You guys saying it didn't don't "get it".

I'm the government. I want to tap a citizens communications (yes, wiretapping is NOT just phones now)), but I can't legally get a warrant. However, I suspect that citizen might have had communications with a non-citizen who I can legally wiretap.

So I tap the non-citizen and then I've legally wiretapped the citizen, too. I want A but can't, so I tap B and get A that way. Now do you, "get it" ?

And if you think that wasn't being down, forget about conservative media I know you'll all discount, read what some of your lefty news media have been saying/complaining about what's been going on before Trump took office. And you might want to review what Edward Snowden disclosed about the extent of obummer's NSA spying.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... rs/513041/
http://time.com/4565149/obama-trump-nsa-surveillance/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/opin ... .html?_r=0

Paul


You don't seem to get that the openly-acknowledged objective is to get A's communication with B, and that if B is lawfully tapped, the only part of A's communication you're going to get is A's communication with B.

And for laughs, I tried reading your NY Times link. You should try reading it, too. What it says, in plain English, is that Obama continued the programs W had put in place, and that "important reforms" were implemented after Snowden's leaks. So Obama's "NSA spying" started out being equal to W and ended up with reforms having been implemented. But to you that somehow qualifies as a criticism of Obama, without reference to W's role in creating the "massive surveillance apparatus" in the first place, or Trump's intent to pursue "draconian, unconstitutional measures", as discussed in the article.

Mike
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: johnjoseph On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:33 pm

The Patriot Act..is what lead us to this point. There doesn't seem to be any concern about it for this administration or the last really.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Sunny Boy On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:01 pm

Pacowy wrote:
Sunny Boy wrote:You guys saying it didn't don't "get it".

I'm the government. I want to tap a citizens communications (yes, wiretapping is NOT just phones now)), but I can't legally get a warrant. However, I suspect that citizen might have had communications with a non-citizen who I can legally wiretap.

So I tap the non-citizen and then I've legally wiretapped the citizen, too. I want A but can't, so I tap B and get A that way. Now do you, "get it" ?

And if you think that wasn't being down, forget about conservative media I know you'll all discount, read what some of your lefty news media have been saying/complaining about what's been going on before Trump took office. And you might want to review what Edward Snowden disclosed about the extent of obummer's NSA spying.

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/ ... rs/513041/
http://time.com/4565149/obama-trump-nsa-surveillance/
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/09/opin ... .html?_r=0

Paul


You don't seem to get that the openly-acknowledged objective is to get A's communication with B, and that if B is lawfully tapped, the only part of A's communication you're going to get is A's communication with B.

And for laughs, I tried reading your NY Times link. You should try reading it, too. What it says, in plain English, is that Obama continued the programs W had put in place, and that "important reforms" were implemented after Snowden's leaks. So Obama's "NSA spying" started out being equal to W and ended up with reforms having been implemented. But to you that somehow qualifies as a criticism of Obama, without reference to W's role in creating the "massive surveillance apparatus" in the first place, or Trump's intent to pursue "draconian, unconstitutional measures", as discussed in the article.

Mike


Ah, I was wondering how long before one of you libs threw down the, "blame Bush card". So since you opened the door to more than just obummer wiretapping Trump, try looking when all the laws for surveillance really started. Try going back even further than Bush and the patriot act. Care to guess who started those spy laws and which administrations thought they were good enough to keep them going ? After all, Bush didn't invent the NSA and other many alphabet soup intel agencies. They were already in place and doing their thing long before the time the patriot act came along.

And, again your cherry picking about some of what those links were saying, which was that obummer kept much of the spying going on that he said he would eliminate. So how much could he be against it is he kept it. And, there are other instances of wiretapping during his reign, including news agencies that were spied on. But I'm sure you'll try to dance around all that, rather then go Google it. :D

Plus, you can add obummer's last-days EO that further shared intel and wiretaps with gov agencies that were/are not qualified to get those wiretaps otherwise. Still think obummer was against wiretapping anyway he could get away with ?

Paul
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Pacowy On: Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:40 pm

Sunny Boy wrote:Ah, I was wondering how long before one of you libs threw down the, "blame Bush card". So since you opened the door to more than just obummer wiretapping Trump, try looking when all the laws for surveillance really started. Try going back even further than Bush and the patriot act. Care to guess who started those spy laws and which administrations thought they were good enough to keep them going ? After all, Bush didn't invent the NSA and other many alphabet soup intel agencies. They were already in place and doing their thing long before the time the patriot act came along.

And, again your cherry picking about some of what those links were saying, which was that obummer kept much of the spying going on that he said he would eliminate. So how much could he be against it is he kept it. And, there are other instances of wiretapping during his reign, including news agencies that were spied on. But I'm sure you'll try to dance around all that, rather then go Google it. :D

Plus, you can add obummer's last-days EO that further shared intel and wiretaps with gov agencies that were/are not qualified to get those wiretaps otherwise. Still think obummer was against wiretapping anyway he could get away with ?

Paul


Nice try, but again devoid of content. I didn't open any door or play any card. The reference to Bush was in your link and it was central to understanding what your link actually said about Obama, which you flatly mischaracterized. He inherited what Bush left, he kept it for a while, he introduced some needed reforms and he left it better than he found it.

And AFAIK I already answered your pointless claim about spying on news agencies. Since you seem to have forgotten, let me repeat:

"I found your link. Sadly it is not a surprise that the headline breathlessly refers to illegal Obama wiretaps, but the content provides no proof that any of them were illegal, or conducted without proper authorization. Heck, the first line of the first link tells you that one was from 2008. The last time I checked Obama didn't become president until 2009. But why bother with facts when the headline says what you want?

For all of your authoritative assertions in prior Hillary-bashing threads about the handling of classified info, it seems like you're buttering your bread on the other side when you try to find impropriety in the lawful wiretap of a journalist as part of an investigation of leaks of confidential material. I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding of the process is that the journalist is held harmless if the material was leaked by somebody else (as opposed to the journalist stealing the classified material without the consent of the person holding it). Thus, Daniel Ellsberg held to answer for Pentagon Papers while NY Times skated. Your link doesn't seem to describe anything other than a proper investigation of a leak of classified material." See Obama wiretaps Trump Towers ???? Sun Mar 12, 2017, 7:01 pm.

You wouldn't have these problems if you actually read the things you link to. Is there one regarding that EO that you can certify as supporting your claim? And, PS, when you bring something up, it's on you to support what you're saying. If you can't supply a credible source or back-up, I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Mike
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: jpete On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:54 am

lsayre wrote:Does the USA want world peace, and with it peaceful coexistence with Russia, or never ending world disruption, and with it, never ending hate and mistrust of Russia? I'm voting for the latter. Clearly we have no desire for world peace, and we need straw men and boggy men to keep our populace in line with expectations.


There's no profit in peace.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:14 am

jpete wrote:
lsayre wrote:Does the USA want world peace, and with it peaceful coexistence with Russia, or never ending world disruption, and with it, never ending hate and mistrust of Russia? I'm voting for the latter. Clearly we have no desire for world peace, and we need straw men and boggy men to keep our populace in line with expectations.


There's no profit in peace.


Agreed! No way to force the world to buy oil with exclusively US fiat Dollars if we resort to world peace either. One consequence of peace (leading to oil that can be directly purchased in local currencies) would (IMHO) be roughly an 80% downward revaluation of the US Dollar on the international markets. The only reason why foreign countries buy up our debt/currency issues (and in the process transfer to the US Dollar a vastly inflated semblance of value) is so they can buy oil that must be purchased in US Dollars. They are certainly not lending value to the US Dollar by purchasing our manufactured wares. Our greatest export item is scrapped vehicles that have been crushed into cubes.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:41 am

lsayre wrote:The only reason why foreign countries buy up our debt/currency issues (and in the process transfer to the US Dollar a vastly inflated semblance of value) is so they can buy oil that must be purchased in US Dollars. They are certainly not lending value to the US Dollar by purchasing our manufactured wares. Our greatest export item is scrapped vehicles that have been crushed into cubes.


I don't think that's accurate. We have big dollar commodity exports in lots of categories (https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/Pr ... e/exh7.pdf), and that doesn't include big $ exports of services. No doubt there generally has been a deficit, but U.S. is a big exporter into world markets.

Mike
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:59 am

I certainly did overstep my export bounds here. It turns out that scrap vehicle metal trade to (exclusively) China was once our main export to them, but over the past few years even this hasn't been the case, since their steel manufacturing industry has gone into stall mode and they are no longer buying scrap vehicle metal at rates we once experienced. I would assume that many if not most of the international boxes that come to our shores ladened with Chinese wares are returned empty.

This does nothing to alter the petrodollar situation which we have foisted upon the world though.
Last edited by lsayre on Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: rberq On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:15 am

lsayre wrote:The only reason why foreign countries buy up our debt/currency issues (and in the process transfer to the US Dollar a vastly inflated semblance of value) is so they can buy oil that must be purchased in US Dollars.
Sometimes, with theories like that, I wonder if you're way smarter than the rest of us. But I don't think so. :( For example the Fed raised its interest rate a few days ago, and foreign money flowed into the US bond market. That's because they see our currency and economy as pretty stable, not because they want to buy oil from East Crapistan.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:26 am

rberq wrote:Sometimes, with theories like that, I wonder if you're way smarter than the rest of us. But I don't think so. :( For example the Fed raised its interest rate a few days ago, and foreign money flowed into the US bond market. That's because they see our currency and economy as pretty stable, not because they want to buy oil from East Crapistan.


When under the Nixon administration we established the worldwide petrodollar system, was our reason in instituting it pure benevolence?

Since the most sought after commodity in the world--oil--is priced in U.S. dollars, the petrodollar helped elevated the greenback as the world's dominant currency. In fact, according to the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) triennial survey, 87 percent of all foreign exchanges deals initiated in April 2013, involved the USD on one side. With this status, the U.S. dollar was able to enjoy, what some have asserted to be an "exorbitant privilege" of perpetually financing its current account deficit by issuing dollar denominated assets at very low rates of interest, as well as, becoming a global economic hegemony.
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/forex/072915/how-petrodollars-affect-us-dollar.asp

Hegemony:
1 : preponderant influence or authority over others : domination
2 : the social, cultural, ideological, or economic influence exerted by a dominant group

Without worldwide petrodollar hegemony the US Dollar might some day devolve to the status of the currency of "East Crapistan". There should be a Nixon Monument in DC celebrating his genius in implementing the petrodollar. With it we can in many ways rule the world without having boots on the ground worldwide. The only price we pay is that we must remain the worlds petrodollar protection racket mobster policeman.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:11 pm

I struggle to see how the sustainable advantage could be very big if there are functioning currency exchange markets. That said, I think the rationale for petrodollars was effectively laid out a long time ago in a speech by Arthur Jensen:

"The Arabs have taken billions of dollars out of this country, and now they must put it back! It is ebb and flow, tidal gravity! It is ecological balance!

...There are no nations. There are no peoples. There are no Russians. There are no Arabs. There are no third worlds. There is no West. There is only one holistic system of systems, one vast and immane, interwoven, interacting, multivariate, multinational dominion of dollars. Petro-dollars, electro-dollars, multi-dollars, reichmarks, rins, rubles, pounds, and shekels.

It is the international system of currency which determines the totality of life on this planet. That is the natural order of things today. That is the atomic and subatomic and galactic structure of things today!" See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuBe93FMiJc .

Mike
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Blackrocks On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:31 pm

Whats all that got to do with the subject of this thread?
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: lsayre On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:52 pm

Blackrocks wrote:Whats all that got to do with the subject of this thread?


Because there appears to be a prevailing notion that Trump is becoming buddy-buddy with the Ruski's, and that brings the potential for a level of world peace that greatly threatens the hegemony of the entrenched petrodollar system, and that means Trump must be brought to his knees somehow (before he potentially and likely unknowingly triggers the collapse of the US currency via ending the petrodollar hegemony), and that means wiretapping. There is no disconnect here. It is all completely relevant. It is a quite logical motive for the wiretapping.
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Re: Whoops NO WIRETAPS

PostBy: Pacowy On: Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:20 pm

I agree it has relevance, though I think there is an obstacle in the way of drawing a straight line between that and the wiretapping. He can run on a platform of increased cooperation with the Russians, and get elected if that's what the voters want, but he can't engage in diplomacy or make deals on U.S. policy until he has taken the oath and become president. Until then he is a private citizen, and AFAIK it is a felony for a private citizen to do that. Trump's election may have put the petrodollar system in jeopardy, and if he got elected without breaking the law, that's the will of the voters. But if he/his staff/his surrogates broke the law as part of Russia's actions to influence the election, he created the need for the investigation.

Mike
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