My GW 116

Sunny Boy wrote:Looks very good Phil.

Not many tin knockers left. Especially those that have a heavy-duty bead roller. Can you post the shop's name and contact info so that other stove owners down your way will know where to get that kind of work done ?

Paul

Looks great Phil ! I have access to a roll, but not a beader. I wonder if the bead and flange could be put in with an English wheel?

Paulie

Pauliewog wrote:

Sunny Boy wrote:Looks very good Phil.

Not many tin knockers left. Especially those that have a heavy-duty bead roller. Can you post the shop's name and contact info so that other stove owners down your way will know where to get that kind of work done ?

Paul

Looks great Phil ! I have access to a roll, but not a beader. I wonder if the bead and flange could be put in with an English wheel?

Paulie

Good question. I don't know what dies come with an English wheel but I could see it as a possibility. A simple hand flange tool would be good enough for the bottom I would think. It really isn't that hard it's just having the right tools which I will at some point.

I found two that looked promising.
https://www.magnumtools.com/products/11670-baileigh-manual-18-gauge-bead-roller-br-18m-18/

http://www.eastwood.com/bead-roller-kit-with-mandrels.html

Paulie

Pauliewog wrote:I found two that looked promising.
https://www.magnumtools.com/products/11670-baileigh-manual-18-gauge-bead-roller-br-18m-18/

http://www.eastwood.com/bead-roller-kit-with-mandrels.html

Paulie

They won't work with 16 ga steel. They are marginal with the 18 gauge.

I have a heavy duty bead roller for putting beads in 16 ga car fenders and such. The difference in strength and control is tremendous.

The beads and flanged edge have to be done after the barrel is rolled, or you'd need custom made rollers to roll the beads and flanged edge in a rolling machine.

An English wheel is not a good choice for doing the beads, or flanged edge of a barrel. It would have to be one of the big cast iron wheels to be strong enough to exert enough force, and then the body of the machine would not let the barrel clear it. Plus there is no provision for guides to run parallel to an edge.

A heavy duty bead roller does not have the clearance problem. And it is set up with an adjustable fence to run straight beads parrellel to an edge.

Plus, without the geared hand crank drive of a bear roller, which tunrs both upper and lower wheels, it's be very tough to push/pull a curved barrel through an English wheel's non-powered rollers with the amount of clamping force needed to press the beads.

And the smaller, bench mount English wheels that a barrel would clear, are not strong enough. I know because that's what I use for making body patch panels and door skins. The 16 ga mild steel I use is barely doable with just the very shallow curvature of the doors I made for the 31 MG Type M in the pictures.

Plus, with the heavy duty bead roller and a change of roller shape you can do the flanged edge, too.

Paul

Thanks for the input SB. I didn't consider the stops for keeping it straight and the crank for turning. For most barrels all that is needed is the slip roller and bead roller. I havent really looked at how the barrels are done that are a complete cylinder with just the door cut out - are they seemed together in the back?

There's a guy within an hour of me that has a 36" pexto slip roller for sale that I keep looking at but haven't approached yet. After that, a bead roller and a fella would be set. Too much to buy and not enough money to go around.

Pauliewog, I've looked at both of those and several others. They would certainly be enough to get the job done.

There is no doubt in my mind Paul....... You are the Man to ask ! So, do you have any recommendations on a suitable model that is reasonably priced ?

Paulie

Until you jump into sheet metal machines expense-wise, they don't tell you that the world of sheet metal forming tools are divided into tools that will do 18 ga (barely) and thinner.... and then those that can handle 16 ga and thicker. Unfortunately the equipment needed to handle 16 ga are on the VERY EXPENSIVE side.

Because of what they do, brakes and rollers kinda get away with crossing over that line a bit if they only have to handle short widths. For the short length of some stove barrels rolling is easy. But because of how much you need to deform the metal beading is tougher because of the amount of force needed out at the reach of the machine. That means that for stove barrel thickness you need stronger, heavier, cast iron frame machines,.... and then the price sky rockets for even used machines.

I have a 36 inch combo cast iron break and roller machine, plus a heavy duty bead roller/ flanger. The break/roller that will barely bend 16 ga and roll slightly thicker,..... but I cracked the cast iron frame on the break/roller machine doing 16 gauge making a new gas tank and haven't gotten around to welding it yet.

Paul

Pauliewog wrote:There is no doubt in my mind Paul....... You are the Man to ask ! So, do you have any recommendations on a suitable model that is reasonably priced ?

Paulie

Paulie,
The metal forming machines on sites like Eastwood are really pushing it for 16 ga. They are really meant for lighter gauge metal.

As I said, 16 ga steps up into the world of "heavy-duty" machines. 18 ga and lighter ga machines are classed as light duty machines.

Places like Eastwood don't like to use the industry term of "light duty" in their sales info. However,being light duty machines, those flat plate metal stiffened arm type bead rollers in the links will deflect if you tried to roll the size beads the stove barrels need. You might get it done in multiple passes by increasing the tension with each pass, if the metal doesn't work harden to much on the first passes. ????? Or you'd have to use lighter gage steel for the barrel, but then what are you really saving ?

I bought a $500.00 cast iron frame box break/roller combo machine from Harbor freight that was advertises as heavy duty. But I think the "heavy" part has more to do with it's weight than it's strength. It's so heavy I have to take it apart to move it. But, It will barely do a 36 inch long fold in 16 ga mild steel. However no problem rolling 36 inches of that thickness.

The bead roller I have is on loan from a friend,... if I made the roller dies to fit the old fenders we work on, which I did. It's a cast iron bench-mount beast, of unknown age, that I can barely lift up onto the bench. It handles 16 ga mild steel like it was sheet butter. It's a long reach machine and there's no detectable deflection of the cast arms when rolling deep, wide beads in a single pass. Yet the arms are narrow enough that you could reach full length into about a 10 inch cylinder - maybe even smaller. I imagine it would be very expensive to replace today.

Here's a short-reach heavy duty bead rolling machine from Grizzly.
http://www.grizzly.com/products/Heavy-Duty-Bead-Roller/G0816

Notice the "16" in the model number. That's the capacity even though they say it can do 12 ga aluminum, or 14 ga mild steel. Then look at the price. A long reach machine would be much more expensive. Ok, it's power driven, but my guess is that a manually powered hand-crank machine would be about half that. You can buy a lot of finished, ready to install barrels for what the two machines that you need would cost,.... even for good quality used machines.

Paul

Paul

You have me a little concerned. I used 20 gauge for my barrel. Two different shops checked it and said it was 22 gauge. My choices at the store were 24 and 20 so I went with the heavier 20 gauge. Are you saying that the barrel should be heavier than that?

philthy wrote:Paul

You have me a little concerned. I used 20 gauge for my barrel. Two different shops checked it and said it was 22 gauge. My choices at the store were 24 and 20 so I went with the heavier 20 gauge. Are you saying that the barrel should be heavier than that?

Just looked at my Glenwood #6 - I can't get a micrometer on the sheet metal anywhere without tearing stuff off it, not happening... But looking at the edge where I can see it, it's certainly not 16 gauge. AWG 16 gauge is about 0.05" (the tabulated number is 0.050821"). I guess ( by eyeballing) it's probably closer to 20 gauge which is about 0.032" (0.031961"). Again, without being able to put a micrometer on it, I can't really say, but 16 gauge it is not...

dj

philthy wrote:Paul

You have me a little concerned. I used 20 gauge for my barrel. Two different shops checked it and said it was 22 gauge. My choices at the store were 24 and 20 so I went with the heavier 20 gauge. Are you saying that the barrel should be heavier than that?

Sorry to worry you, Phil. I thought I had measured it back when I first got my GW #6 and was surprised at how closely it matched much of the car sheet metal thicknesses from that same era. But stove parts are not the only thing that gets rusty with age.

So, ..... I went to the shop and got my sheet metal gauge and measured the flange edge of my #6's original barrel, using my "US Standard Gage for Sheet & Plate Iron & Steel". It's a tight 19 ga in some spots, 18 ga in others and no way the 20 ga slot will fit over any part of that edge. Considering that this barrel shows rust pitting, then having been sandblasted,... plus flanging an edge stretches it a tad thinner in places, that's not a good place to accurately measure the original thickness using one of these thickness gages commonly used in sheet metal shops.

So I mic-ed the barrel about 3/4 inch above the flanged edge and below the lower bead. It's an honest .0625 inch (see pix below). That's 16 gage in the US Standard Gage.

The confusion in gage numbers may be in the differences in old verse new gage standard numbering systems ????

Paul

Thats interesting.... Maybe there were different thickness for the different types? DJ says hes pretty sure his is less than 16 gauge though. Can you elaborate a little more on old vs new gauge measurements?

Hell P, you could do that with lumber--new is nowhere near old measurements & trust me--it's not for the better!!

No doubt! Nothing is built like it use to be. Things made out of plastic that shouldn't be, 7 year old trucks rusted to hell but the price is through the roof! Lighter equals less cost which I get but ultimately at what expense? Its the consumer who loses without any recourse. Frustrating to say the least.....

philthy wrote:Thats interesting.... Maybe there were different thickness for the different types? DJ says hes pretty sure his is less than 16 gauge though. Can you elaborate a little more on old vs new gauge measurements?

Back when these stoves were being made there was still quite a bit of each supplier/manufacture using their own, or some other standard, like Brown & Sharp, or US Standard.

One of the early makes of American cars I work on (from 1902 to early 30's), that car club has over 20K of the original factory drawings. They were one of the earliest auto manufacturers to join the SAE and they were also promoting engineering standards. Their engineers were some of the best and most innovative in the industry. All the blue prints for the sheet metal parts in those cars use that same US Standard Gage that I mentioned.

Today, some use the American Wire Gage that DLJ mentioned, some still use the US Standard Gage. But switch to galvanized steel, or sheet brass, or aluminum, and the gage thickness changes again for the same gage number.

When I call my metal supplier we use decimal thickness to avoid confusion. When I go there to pickup my order I bring my sheet metal gages along to make sure. A lot easier to use than trying to read a micrometer in a poorly lit warehouse.

Paul